Best way to run rear steer

alanevans10 · Jan 29, 2014

Oh, ok. I thought you had all serpentine brackets and pulleys.

b.boyd · Jan 29, 2014

dodgecrawler2011 said:
Now with that answered how much harder will the stock pump have to work.

The pump really does not work any harder,. Well unless you tried to run front and rear simultaneously which is a moot point anyways. I have replaced one pump in 7 years of running this set up.

However, what you have to be ready to deal with is increased demands for fluid capacity and cooling the fluid. A typical 8 inch PSC reservoir will not hold enough oil to run front and rear steering off one pump without overflowing during heat expansion. So you need to be prepared to create more space for fluid by either modifying a PSC reservoir or another option is to fabricate your own larger reservoir. .I modified an old style PSC reservoir. I attached a photo of mine which is basically a dual 8 inch reservoir set up that is connected. Note how short my feed line is to my pump and that the pump feed line is directly over and below the line out of the reservoir. This makes for quick and steady flow to the pump. Long pump feed lines with angled fittings slows pump feed. Won't necessarily kill the pump, but, it will shorten its life especially as the pump is more modified to flow more.
Hope this helps you.

John Galbreath Jr. · Jan 29, 2014

alanevans10 said:
Oh, ok. I thought you had all serpentine brackets and pulleys.

38 Special is LS based and runs a serpentine, it has a single pump. The Solo Buggy is a generstion one 383 stroker motor. It runs v-belts and a dual pumps. The front and rear steer are completely separate, down to dual reservoiers. Clearer?

alanevans10 · Jan 29, 2014

Yep, clear. I have a gen 1 motor with vortec serp brackets is why I was asking. I couldn't find any good info on running two pumps on those brackets so I am just running one pump for the front and rear. Thought you might have what I've been looking for.

Skidkid · Jan 29, 2014

Re:

b.boyd said:
Unfortunately JJs pic is no longer current of what he had ;but, it was the same as mine which I have attached a picture of mine . The rest of the divider valves in that thread are different types of type 3 electric divider solenoid valves. All of which are simple and cost efficient. Also, attached picture of joystick mounted away from divider valve.

What joystick are you running and where are they available at?

One pump feeds only so much GPMs and feeding one cylinder, it will move that cylinder at a given speed. Two cylinders feeding off the same pump at same time will slow travel on both cylinders.

You can run dual pumps into one circuit but the same thing will happen really plus you'll generate an extreme amount of additional heat = hydraulics #1 enemy.

Best setup is to run dual pumps, one for rear and one for front. Keeping them independent works as an advantage for redundancy. If one steering system should fail, the other should at least get you back to camp.

patooyee · Jan 30, 2014

3 ways to run rear steer using engine-driven pumps:

A: 1 pump, everything plumbed together like John posted diagrams for. This is simple but as already stated, only one end will ever have full power at a time. You can easily learn to drive around this but its sometimes annoying. Back in the day this is how mine was.

B: 2 pumps plumbed together. If you do this you need to run check valves in the pressure line right after each pump so that if one pump dies it isn't fighting your other pump and / or pumping backwards through the dead pump. The main reason to do this would be to obtain more displacement / speed if you wanted the rear to move faster or were running a huge orbital that one pump couldn't keep up with. But like above, only one end ever has full power at once.

C: 2 pumps, completely separate systems. This is the super-pimp way to do it and what I have now and will never go back from. This is simply awesome, IMO. No compromises. You have full power at both ends all the time in unison, can do whatever you wan whenever you want without waiting. I have foot controls for my rear in my rig and use them 100% of the time. I NEVER use hand controls any more. My brain has become almost fully adept at controlling both front and rear simultaneously and I love it. Ask any of my friends, I can zoom around the woods, tight turns, around trees, on the trails at speed controlling both ends just fine. I can absolutely leave people in the dust in tight hairy stuff even with rockwells and 120" wheelbase because I can easily control both ends at once as if I never did it any other way. I have poor rearward visibility and have been in the front of a line before just chugging along through the woods and then eventually realize no one is behind me. I then sit there for 30 minutes waiting for them to catch up. Its hilarious.

I'm a rear steer junkie. I love it. I would have rear steer in my daily driver if I could. Every day I park in parking lots I wish I had it and after rides for the next couple hours I find my left foot stomping the spot in my DD where the controls are in my buggy without even thinking.

And yes, I do sell dual pump brackets for LS engines: http://patparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=36&osCsid=3ce5a6c50194d585b8e5b509697ebcdf

In that thread about rear steer valves I prefer my current setup to the one that b.boyd posted only because it has a pilot-operated directional check valve in it whereas the standard spool valve like b.boyd has does not. My spool valve always had a very slow leak to one side that got a lot worse as it aged. There was no valve to prevent it. The pilot check valve prevents any leaking and keeps the tires where you leave them. This is a very minor quirk though.

patooyee · Jan 30, 2014

The electric over hydraulic rear steer is cool but has some compromises. The motor they use is about equal to a winch motor, so imagine running your winch every time you turned your rear and that is what your electrical system has to keep up with. There is a power ceiling in terms of what 12-volt charging systems are capable of handling and those motors are at that ceiling which is why you won't find any that are higher displacement. Some are higher pressure than an engine-driven ps pump (at the sacrifice of displacement most of the time) so you can down-size your ram to gain back a little speed. But a lot of us need the shaft size that the bigger rams offer so then you're playing with system reliability. Even the highest displacement electric/hydro unit pales in displacement compared to even a stock engine driven pump. But they are cool in that they are independent from the engine and if your engine isn't running you can still rear-steer off the trail.

patooyee · Jan 30, 2014

BTW, b.boyd, I think you could plumb in 2 pilot operated check valves such as these using your spool valve and achieve the same benefits as the valve I went to:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Check-Lock-Valves/3-8-NPT-8-GPM-BRAND-PC37C-PILOT-OP-CHECK-VALVE-9-8408-38.axd

Rokcrler · Jan 30, 2014

Pics of your controls JJ?

b.boyd · Jan 30, 2014

patooyee said:
BTW, b.boyd, I think you could plumb in 2 pilot operated check valves such as these using your spool valve and achieve the same benefits as the valve I went to:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Check-Lock-Valves/3-8-NPT-8-GPM-BRAND-PC37C-PILOT-OP-CHECK-VALVE-9-8408-38.axd
[/quote

jj thanks for the suggestion. I guess i haveclose to 10 years of service on that type of valve between both of my vehicles that are equiped with it. In that time I have never had any leak down resulting drifting....but definately if it evet became issue I know where to look to fix it...look forward to catching up with you sometime and seeing those foot pedals.

patooyee · Jan 31, 2014

Rokcrler said:
Pics of your controls JJ?

Don't have any at the moment. They're just two Echlin brand momentary foot switches mounted by my left foot. They're similar to the old high beam switches on Jeeps. One for left, one for right.

Rokcrler · Jan 31, 2014

Re:

Was mainly wondering on placement since your foot well area seems tight

patooyee · Feb 1, 2014

Re: Re: Re:

Rokcrler said:
Was mainly wondering on placement since your foot well area seems tight

Found a pic:

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Rokcrler · Feb 1, 2014

Re:

sweet!

modifier · Feb 1, 2014

Re: Re: Re:

patooyee said:
Found a pic:

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This looks like a great solution. Why 2 switches? Is it normal front steer only, then push one for rear only and the second for front and rear? Or do you have the option for crab steer? Any chance you could go into all the details for this system?

patooyee · Feb 1, 2014

Those switches only control my rear. Left one makes the front of the rear tires turn left, right one makes them go right. It uses all the same valves, etc that a normal joystick system does but just adds the foot switches. In the future I won't bother with a joystick anymore. I've switched completely to 100% foot control of the rear and am not going back. This was my shop-mate's idea originally, NWFLYJ, and its the best suggestion I've ever used of his.

I'm looking for a suitable paddle lever type switch to make the install a little more pimp but most I've found are very large and bulky.

modifier · Feb 2, 2014

Slick idea.

Well if the switches you have are just momentary with atuo recenter upon release, couldn't you just hace 2 smalll switches on the spokes of the steering wheel? Add silonod switches if necessary.

That would aslo free up the left foot for clutch and/or brake.

modifier · Feb 2, 2014

Nice dead pedal btw. You make that or buy it? I need a couple.

STROKERYOTA · Feb 2, 2014

patooyee said:
3 ways to run rear steer using engine-driven pumps:

A: 1 pump, everything plumbed together like John posted diagrams for. This is simple but as already stated, only one end will ever have full power at a time. You can easily learn to drive around this but its sometimes annoying. Back in the day this is how mine was.

B: 2 pumps plumbed together. If you do this you need to run check valves in the pressure line right after each pump so that if one pump dies it isn't fighting your other pump and / or pumping backwards through the dead pump. The main reason to do this would be to obtain more displacement / speed if you wanted the rear to move faster or were running a huge orbital that one pump couldn't keep up with. But like above, only one end ever has full power at once.

C: 2 pumps, completely separate systems. This is the super-pimp way to do it and what I have now and will never go back from. This is simply awesome, IMO. No compromises. You have full power at both ends all the time in unison, can do whatever you wan whenever you want without waiting. I have foot controls for my rear in my rig and use them 100% of the time. I NEVER use hand controls any more. My brain has become almost fully adept at controlling both front and rear simultaneously and I love it. Ask any of my friends, I can zoom around the woods, tight turns, around trees, on the trails at speed controlling both ends just fine. I can absolutely leave people in the dust in tight hairy stuff even with rockwells and 120" wheelbase because I can easily control both ends at once as if I never did it any other way. I have poor rearward visibility and have been in the front of a line before just chugging along through the woods and then eventually realize no one is behind me. I then sit there for 30 minutes waiting for them to catch up. Its hilarious.

I'm a rear steer junkie. I love it. I would have rear steer in my daily driver if I could. Every day I park in parking lots I wish I had it and after rides for the next couple hours I find my left foot stomping the spot in my DD where the controls are in my buggy without even thinking.

And yes, I do sell dual pump brackets for LS engines: http://patparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=36&osCsid=3ce5a6c50194d585b8e5b509697ebcdf

In that thread about rear steer valves I prefer my current setup to the one that b.boyd posted only because it has a pilot-operated directional check valve in it whereas the standard spool valve like b.boyd has does not. My spool valve always had a very slow leak to one side that got a lot worse as it aged. There was no valve to prevent it. The pilot check valve prevents any leaking and keeps the tires where you leave them. This is a very minor quirk though.

I will be ordering a bracket kit soon, what exactly is the benefit of 5.5" pullys?

patooyee · Feb 3, 2014

Re:

Dead pedal! That's a great name for it! Here I've been calling it a foot rest like I cut it off a lazy boy and installed it in my rig! I made it though, thanks.

I do have a return to center setup but the sensing ram is broken at the moment so I return to center manually with my foot. Foot controls are about more than convenience though. I've found that they are about brain bandwidth. Like texting and driving, your brain expends exorbitant amounts of attention to the hands. By doing two things you are giving each half your attention whereas for some reason doing one thing with your foot and the other with your hands works better and seems to give more attention to both. This is a proven psychological phenomenon that I learned about back in college. Don't remember what it is called but it is why texting and driving is dangerous in fact and not just theory. No matter how good you think you are your brain is always worse at doing 2 things with your hands than one.

The smaller the pulley the faster your pump spins. Faster= better low speed performance but works the pump way harder at high speed. Most ls engines will be better off with a bigger pulley not only because of their higher red line but also their massive crank pulley that tends to spin the accessories faster still. There is no inherent advantage to using 5.5" pulleys. I just need to know that you are when you order because they require different idler pulleys to fit available belt sizes.

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