Hydroboost and overheating PS fluid?

redneckengineered · Nov 29, 2016

Does hydroboost introduce a lot of additional heat into a steering system? I have been battling a hot fluid issue on Jessica's buggy pretty much since day 1. We are about to be on pump #3. The first pump was deemed bad but I'm pretty sure heat killed it, second pump lived for a good handful of rides but it is now about ready to give up the ghost. I can tell her fluid smells burnt and just putting my hand on her steering res vs laying my hand on my steering res after we run the same trails hers is way hotter. Our steering systems are identical with the exception of two parts.

She's running the WOD hydroboost kit and a derale cooler
https://wideopendesign.com/hydroboost-brake-assembly.html
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-13250

I'm running manual brakes and the Howe trophy truck cooler
http://www.polyperformance.com/Howe-Performance-Trophy-Truck-Cooler-3-Dia-x-12-1150

I'm guessing the Howe cooler is probably a better cooler than the Derale and that would be the easiest upgrade but I'm not sure if it will be enough because I just don't know how much heat hydroboost introduces into a steering system. I've always had manual brakes and have no experience with it. Do you think hydroboost is the problem here or is there something else going on?

jk101 · Nov 29, 2016

Yes. The hydro unit has small passages in it that will cause a temp increase.

RustyC · Nov 29, 2016

Just for reference. I'm running a Jeep and a Buggy both with unmodified P pumps w/ 1.5 quart reservoirs and unmodified hydroboost. Jeep has tube a fin cooler on radiator, buggy has 18" heat sink style cooler. 2.5" cylinder 7.3 orbital valve.
No cooling issues.
Curious if a high flow pump through a unmodified hydroboost is introducing enough restrictions for heating issues.

redneckengineered · Nov 29, 2016

RustyC said:
Just for reference. I'm running a Jeep and a Buggy both with unmodified P pumps w/ 1.5 quart reservoirs and unmodified hydroboost. Jeep has tube a fin cooler on radiator, buggy has 18" heat sink style cooler. 2.5" cylinder 7.3 orbital valve.
No cooling issues.
Curious if a high flow pump through a unmodified hydroboost is introducing enough restrictions for heating issues.

I'm thinking that could be the case. She is running the wizbang PSC CBR pump
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/cbr-power-steering-pump-8-out-12-in-15-0.html

If that's the issue will slapping on a bigger cooler solve the problem? It would be nice if the Howe cooler would do the job but I'm worried she may need something bigger with a fan which would mean rerouting lines and all that BS.

crawlin85cj · Nov 30, 2016

My buggy runs a CBR through the hydroboost and then to the rear steer. I don't have a cooler on it but it's not under heavy use like the front would be. I've never had a heating issue with hydroboost and I've been running it for over 10 years. I would suspect a better cooler would help out a ton.

I would ask Lance. He knows more about steering and hydroboost than anyone I know. He is the reason I started running hydroboost way back in the day. You might also talk to Nathan Willis, I'm pretty sure he has a similar setup on his buggy.

redneckengineered · Nov 30, 2016

crawlin85cj said:
My buggy runs a CBR through the hydroboost and then to the rear steer. I don't have a cooler on it but it's not under heavy use like the front would be. I've never had a heating issue with hydroboost and I've been running it for over 10 years. I would suspect a better cooler would help out a ton.

I would ask Lance. He knows more about steering and hydroboost than anyone I know. He is the reason I started running hydroboost way back in the day. You might also talk to Nathan Willis, I'm pretty sure he has a similar setup on his buggy.

I actually did talk to Nathan. He's running the same pump, cooler, and hydroboost unit as Jessica and says his does not over heat. Can a hydroboost unit be bad? I mean, the brakes work great. The only thing I can say about it is the pedal seems slow to come back after you press it, maybe that creates an additional drag on the system all the time but maybe this is normal. I've never had hydroboost so I don't know how it should act.

IronsWorx · Nov 30, 2016

redneckengineered said:
I actually did talk to Nathan. He's running the same pump, cooler, and hydroboost unit as Jessica and says his does not over heat. Can a hydroboost unit be bad? I mean, the brakes work great. The only thing I can say about it is the pedal seems slow to come back after you press it, maybe that creates an additional drag on the system all the time but maybe this is normal. I've never had hydroboost so I don't know how it should act.

I had the same problem, I changed my hydroboost unit and all my problems went away. Also, check the magnet in the pump, I also had quite a bit of metal in the system as well. I replaced the Hydroboost and flushed the pump and the lines and I have been great ever since.

redneckengineered · Nov 30, 2016

IronsWorx said:
I had the same problem, I changed my hydroboost unit and all my problems went away. Also, check the magnet in the pump, I also had quite a bit of metal in the system as well. I replaced the Hydroboost and flushed the pump and the lines and I have been great ever since.

This sounds promising. I just know that WOD has built multiple buggies with her exact setup and she's the only one with overheating fluid problems.

zayne2427 · Nov 30, 2016

Moved

gottagofast · Nov 30, 2016

Followed....

redneckengineered · Dec 1, 2016

Been talking to Rocky at WOD about this some more. I found out they have these HB units built new by a company called Hydratech, they are not pasts store remans. They think like I do, that something is up with the unit and it's not just the fact that she has hydroboost making things overheat. Rocky reiterated that they have had success with other builds running the exact same components and no overheating problems. So, before we throw a bigger cooler at it, we're going to let them go through the HB unit. I still may have her upgrade to the bigger Howe TT cooler just for a little head room but I feel like we may be close to solving the problem. Got the HB unit pulled today along with the CBR pump. Everything is heading out for inspection/rebuild and hopefully we'll have her back beating on it soon.

For those of you with other HB related problems, take a look at this thread Rocky sent me. It has responses from the tech guy at Hydratech and is an EXCELLENT read for anyone that needs to troubleshoot.
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86332-Backpressure-issues-w-Hydratech

tallnate · Dec 1, 2016

Several points caught my attention when I skimmed through that link you attached.. these might be worth looking into on Jessica's setup.

Excessive back pressure in the brake assist unit's low pressure return circuit can cause PS system overheating

We have also solved some backpressure issues by slowing the PS pump flow down a bit, as some of these LS pumps flow like mad. If you tame the flow down a bit, you also slow overall flow through the system which eases up the backpressure (caused by high flow rates). Detroit Speed and Engineering has a replacement PS pump output fitting for your pump to bring it down in flow.

There are also many times where a cooler installed into the PS system will actually cause back pressure, creating heat and overall PS system woes when it does not flow properly. I know this may sound 'backwards', though a restrictive PS cooler can cause more harm than good (which is why we suggest the use of a trans cooler as opposed to a PS cooler)

I run a tub/fin style transmission cooler like this in front of my radiator and it seems to work a lot better than my heat sink cooler did.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-403/overview/

paradisepwoffrd · Dec 1, 2016

Re: Re: Hydroboost and overheating PS fluid?

redneckengineered said:
Been talking to Rocky at WOD about this some more. I found out they have these HB units built new by a company called Hydratech, they are not pasts store remans. They think like I do, that something is up with the unit and it's not just the fact that she has hydroboost making things overheat. Rocky reiterated that they have had success with other builds running the exact same components and no overheating problems. So, before we throw a bigger cooler at it, we're going to let them go through the HB unit. I still may have her upgrade to the bigger Howe TT cooler just for a little head room but I feel like we may be close to solving the problem. Got the HB unit pulled today along with the CBR pump. Everything is heading out for inspection/rebuild and hopefully we'll have her back beating on it soon.

For those of you with other HB related problems, take a look at this thread Rocky sent me. It has responses from the tech guy at Hydratech and is an EXCELLENT read for anyone that needs to troubleshoot.
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86332-Backpressure-issues-w-Hydratech

I was going to suggest running a cooler in the hydroboost return and one in the orbital return to help with cooling.

Glad you might have found an issue.

redneckengineered · Dec 2, 2016

tallnate said:
Several points caught my attention when I skimmed through that link you attached.. these might be worth looking into on Jessica's setup.

Excessive back pressure in the brake assist unit's low pressure return circuit can cause PS system overheating

We have also solved some backpressure issues by slowing the PS pump flow down a bit, as some of these LS pumps flow like mad. If you tame the flow down a bit, you also slow overall flow through the system which eases up the backpressure (caused by high flow rates). Detroit Speed and Engineering has a replacement PS pump output fitting for your pump to bring it down in flow.

There are also many times where a cooler installed into the PS system will actually cause back pressure, creating heat and overall PS system woes when it does not flow properly. I know this may sound 'backwards', though a restrictive PS cooler can cause more harm than good (which is why we suggest the use of a trans cooler as opposed to a PS cooler)

I run a tub/fin style transmission cooler like this in front of my radiator and it seems to work a lot better than my heat sink cooler did.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-403/overview/

That's exactly what jumped out to me as well. Rocky is going to talk with them directly, he knows the system better than me since they sell/install it every day. I'll report back what he finds out.

Bebop · Dec 2, 2016

Slowing the flow down is probably going to alter the steering feel and quality though.

In the case of a full hydro steering, the more flow the better. Almost. Until you reach a threshold which would put out too much heat. But I really doubt a single CBR pump reaches that threshold.

shrek tits · Dec 4, 2016

redneckengineered said:
I'm thinking that could be the case. She is running the wizbang PSC CBR pump
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/cbr-power-steering-pump-8-out-12-in-15-0.html

If that's the issue will slapping on a bigger cooler solve the problem? It would be nice if the Howe cooler would do the job but I'm worried she may need something bigger with a fan which would mean rerouting lines and all that BS.

Off topic but does that pump create more noise than any other pump? Do you use the fancy external pressure relief?

redneckengineered · Dec 4, 2016

shrek tits said:
Off topic but does that pump create more noise than any other pump? Do you use the fancy external pressure relief?

No, seems to perform great. Don't run the pressure relief, reservoir is vented to a catch can which is vented to atmosphere.

redneckengineered · Dec 13, 2016

Fingers crossed, I may have this problem whooped. We'll know for sure after our next ride which is New Years at AOP yea c'mon. Hydratech wasn't much help. It's clear those dudes know their stuff and are total hydraulic nerds and they inundated me with a bunch of tech, but all their solutions pretty much revolved around limiting the flow from my pump. Not gonna happen. They're not offroad guys, so I guess they don't really understand what we're trying to accomplish with these big pumps and massive rams. As a last resort before going to manual brakes I called up Lance at PSC. He set me straight in a hurry. Wish I had just called him first. We were essentially trying to push a **** load of fluid through little tiny ports and fittings in the hydroboost unit which was creating a ton of heat. Lance says they run hydroboost on everything and just modify them for high flow. End of story. I'll let the pictures do the talking.