SFWDA Q&A

J.P. · Dec 19, 2019

Okay from the Dixie Run 2020 Tread I have been working on some Q&A for Southern Four Wheel Drive Association.(SFWDA) With that said it's total derailed from what it first started as and I see a need for a new tread.

With that said I have been around SFWDA since about 1995. I have been in and out of the Association with some time in the Air Force. While I don't agree with everything, do believe in the purpose of SFWDA. I am sitting on the Board holding a Vice President for a 1 year term. At the end of a year people will either love or hate me. Either way is fine with me, I am still going to be Four Wheeling and raising hell!

So why do I want to take the kick in the nuts and start this tread.....I want to know what ''WE'' need to be doing. I also need to know what we are doing well. I will to my best to field questions or get answers. SFWDA does not pay me, I have a real job I work around 50 hours a week and I have 6 year old daughter. I hope that she continues to enjoy the outdoors and I can help keep it around for her.

February 8th we will be having a leadership meeting, I will be taking this to it. I will be giving feed back before then as well. There are many clubs that make up SFWDA, but I feel this is a very strong resource to reach out to many people.

I could go on for a while, but I'm ready to listen. While I know there is plenty to be said, please can we keep the pissing contests to a minimum.(Or we can waste time and effort fighting, I prefer not to) Hopefully we can get to the facts, so we can make better and more places for "US" as Four wheelers to be able to get out and get off the grid to relax for a while.

Thank you for you time and interest.

TBItoy · Dec 19, 2019

Q1-

Is SFWDA currently (or planning to) working with any state or local government to promote/encourage/develop 4wd recreation?

I think attempting to open public land to OHV is pissing in the wind.

Lobbying at the state level for limited liability for self guided adventure tourism (encompassing hiking to rock bouncing) for private owners is a better approach (much like the TN agri-tourism liability laws).

If land owners could easily open their logging and mining land to recreational users for an alternate revenue stream without having to hold millions of dollars of liability insurance, it'd be a win-win-win for owners, local economies, and riders.

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

TBItoy said:
Q1-

Is SFWDA currently (or planning to) working with any state or local government to promote/encourage/develop 4wd recreation?

I think attempting to open public land to OHV is pissing in the wind.

Lobbying at the state level for limited liability for self guided adventure tourism (encompassing hiking to rock bouncing) for private owners is a better approach (much like the TN agri-tourism liability laws).

If land owners could easily open their logging and mining land to recreational users for an alternate revenue stream without having to hold millions of dollars of liability insurance, it'd be a win-win-win for owners, local economies, and riders.

Yes, TDEC awarded $800,000 to develop a 1,347 acer OHV park in Coal Mount, Tennessee. (Grundy County) This was the first time any money like this has been awarded. In years past 100% of the money has gone to WMA road maintenance. This is in hopes to help economic development in the area.

This is an 80%-20% land grant from RTP funds. In the contract with the state of Tennessee, SFWDA will be doing the other 20% with the use of equipment and labor. They have a Facebook page and already have had a few days developing the trail head. The trails will be cut from logging roads and made for full size vehicles. Plans are to have full RV hook ups and bath houses. Through the spring I will be going my self to help develop this area as well.

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

Here are a couple pictures from Facebook.

TBItoy · Dec 20, 2019

Awesome. If TDEC/TWRA allow some high challenge trails to develop...
if they keep the roads freshly bulldozed it will be a SXS mud bog like Royal Blue.

I guess I'll go look for the Facebook page

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

There is not much there, the guy that is running it is technologically challenged. But he is retired and can focus energy on making things happen. I sat down and talked with him about the development 2 weeks ago. I asked him to please give as much notice as possible for the work days. But as we all know winter weather in East Tennessee is day to day. But they will be posted to that Facebook page.

84mallcrawl · Dec 20, 2019

there was a mention about helping the local private owned parks.
I personally think that the best way to help these parks is to get more people going to them.
Everyone of us at some point in time was a newby and had no clue what to do. Use social media/forums to organize group rides at different private parks say once a month. Let an experienced SFWDA lead the weekend for all the new people. That person needs to lead by example they need to put action to the values that SFWDA claims. I'm aiming this statement at all the true first timers, to the people that bought a jeep because of the off road commercial, provide a positive and inclusive environment for the new guys/gals introduction to our hobby. Getting them excited about going on a new adventure next month benefits everyone that is involved.

billstoy · Dec 20, 2019

Just a easy statement directed to me .. I was told rock crawlers and bouncers do the most trail damage..
They are the problem on the trails.
But A group of 20 under prepared street jeeps that have to stop and dig on every rock are tread lightly!!!
Told again Rock bouncers/crawlers ruin every trail.. Rock bouncers/crawlers and buggies are not welcome!
SFWDA takes no responsibility on their own.. Always looking for another group to blame..
Don't like bouncers, crawlers, sxs, dirtbikes, mega trucks . No one but 1 ton jeeps welcome. But they like your money!
Oh yea and tread lightly.
No matter who runs the trails they will get warn. Also been told to stay home when trails are wet. To minimize trail damage..
Well guess winter riding is out !
The trails must be cleaned up before large runs, Dixie/trail. But the week after looks like a bomb went off on every trail.. Also the most litter Of the year!! Where is the after clean up ?? Yes , Have gone myself to help with clean up.
I'm not asking for something I would not do. Yes some of the southern people do carry trash bags, Thanks!
If it is your event Your people should be responsible for the clean up !
To put this in prospective !! I Yes ME !!! I have gone to AOP the weekend before your events to open trails!!! No Southern ?
Again ,I yes ME ! Have gone the weekend after to clean up! Again no southern ? I have also cleaned up at GMP after, even if it was just picking up trash !! Should not have been any trash to pick up!! Not looking for credit!! Just clearly stating this, not second hand hearsay!! With all the members where is the park support?? May have been there , I did not see it!!
I usually pay full park fees on those days !! To do work for your events..
Then at the gate they want me to pay 50-75$ to ride for event day! Hell no !! WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I PAY TO JOIN ??

The Luke · Dec 20, 2019

billstoy said:
Just a easy statement directed to me .. I was told rock crawlers and bouncers do the most trail damage..
They are the problem on the trails.
But A group of 20 under prepared street jeeps that have to stop and dig on every rock are tread lightly!!!
Told again Rock bouncers/crawlers ruin every trail.. Rock bouncers/crawlers and buggies are not welcome!
SFWDA takes no responsibility on their own.. Always looking for another group to blame..
Don't like bouncers, crawlers, sxs, dirtbikes, mega trucks . No one but 1 ton jeeps welcome. But they like your money!
Oh yea and tread lightly.
No matter who runs the trails they will get warn. Also been told to stay home when trails are wet. To minimize trail damage..
Well guess winter riding is out !
The trails must be cleaned up before large runs, Dixie/trail. But the week after looks like a bomb went off on every trail.. Also the most litter Of the year!! Where is the after clean up ?? Yes , Have gone myself to help with clean up.
I'm not asking for something I would not do. Yes some of the southern people do carry trash bags, Thanks!
If it is your event Your people should be responsible for the clean up !
To put this in prospective !! I Yes ME !!! I have gone to AOP the weekend before your events to open trails!!! No Southern ?
Again ,I yes ME ! Have gone the weekend after to clean up! Again no southern ? I have also cleaned up at GMP after, even if it was just picking up trash !! Should not have been any trash to pick up!! Not looking for credit!! Just clearly stating this, not second hand hearsay!! With all the members where is the park support?? May have been there , I did not see it!!
I usually pay full park fees on those days !! To do work for your events..
Then at the gate they want me to pay 50-75$ to ride for event day! Hell no !! WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I PAY TO JOIN ??

He has a good point about before and after care of a park at the sfwda events. One of the main reasons GMP has not sold is due to the damage done from the last ride there. Which was Dixie Run. The place was trashed. I get that some/if not most of it is on the park. But, being the group that sfwda is, You'd think that would be an excellent opportunity to step up and be an example for the offroad community. "Hey Look, we prepared, we enjoyed ourselves and we took out what we brought in." Maybe even leave the place better than it was.

I'd love to see a dollar for dollar break down from last year. I.E... This is what we had to start with, this is what we raised, this is what we spent and where we spent it, this is how we decide what to spend where. I think all of those are very very important details. I know most of which is covered at the annual meeting. But, humor me.

Speaking of, who chooses how much to spend and where? Why only $1k to crawling for Reid? I know individuals, that(based on your 2017 990 form) make significantly less income than what sfwda brings in, that donated 2-3x that amount. But yet $40k+ was spent on lawyer fees. I get that you can't help everyone. But as many sfwda logo's that I saw all over that event, you'd think ya'll bought that kid his own hospital.

Also also, what is the story on the lawsuit that was mentioned during annual meeting? Something about land owners, the county, etc? They discussed the lawsuit as if everyone already knew exactly what the whole story was. I asked on the live chat, but was ignored.

None of that was meant to come across like an attack. Just got carried away.

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

billstoy said:
Just a easy statement directed to me .. I was told rock crawlers and bouncers do the most trail damage..
They are the problem on the trails.
But A group of 20 under prepared street jeeps that have to stop and dig on every rock are tread lightly!!!
Told again Rock bouncers/crawlers ruin every trail.. Rock bouncers/crawlers and buggies are not welcome!
SFWDA takes no responsibility on their own.. Always looking for another group to blame..
Don't like bouncers, crawlers, sxs, dirtbikes, mega trucks . No one but 1 ton jeeps welcome. But they like your money!
Oh yea and tread lightly.
No matter who runs the trails they will get warn. Also been told to stay home when trails are wet. To minimize trail damage..
Well guess winter riding is out !
The trails must be cleaned up before large runs, Dixie/trail. But the week after looks like a bomb went off on every trail.. Also the most litter Of the year!! Where is the after clean up ?? Yes , Have gone myself to help with clean up.
I'm not asking for something I would not do. Yes some of the southern people do carry trash bags, Thanks!
If it is your event Your people should be responsible for the clean up !
To put this in prospective !! I Yes ME !!! I have gone to AOP the weekend before your events to open trails!!! No Southern ?
Again ,I yes ME ! Have gone the weekend after to clean up! Again no southern ? I have also cleaned up at GMP after, even if it was just picking up trash !! Should not have been any trash to pick up!! Not looking for credit!! Just clearly stating this, not second hand hearsay!! With all the members where is the park support?? May have been there , I did not see it!!
I usually pay full park fees on those days !! To do work for your events..
Then at the gate they want me to pay 50-75$ to ride for event day! Hell no !! WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I PAY TO JOIN ??

You make a great point about trail clean up after the event, In fact that never crossed my mind I am going to send a message about that right now. I have done some work before an event and I know local clubs that have pitched in a bit. I know that Adam Woodley has been to several Dixie Runs and same with Goforth in thier race rigs. Yes we support Tread lightly and believe in low impact Four Wheeling. I always have like the phrase....We do not inherit this earth from our parents, but we borrow it from our children. With that said I promise you if you have ever been at Dixie Run or Trail Fest you have heard my engine at full RPM in the evenings trying to be a hero.

We have volunteers that help work the events, none of these that are paid. There is more prep and behind the scenes stuff than most people know. One thing for sure is if we mess up one thing everyone notices. In example long lines to get dinner.

Southern is getting ready to come out with our own trash bags for give away or purchase. Hopefully this will help. I still don't understand why people can't pack out what they pack in.

As far as why pay for a park at an event...… The money that is raised is what funds our projects through the year. You may never need the money that is raised. But what if your favorite trail or the only riding area near you gets threatened to be closed. How are you going to fight it by yourself??? As a group we have a better fight. Can we win every fight...no not even the greatest professional MMA fighters win all their fights! But we go all in on something that we may never have used. It's about community.

Wmikew06 · Dec 20, 2019

The Luke said:
He has a good point about before and after care of a park at the sfwda events. One of the main reasons GMP has not sold is due to the damage done from the last ride there. Which was Dixie Run. The place was trashed. I get that some/if not most of it is on the park. But, being the group that sfwda is, You'd think that would be an excellent opportunity to step up and be an example for the offroad community. "Hey Look, we prepared, we enjoyed ourselves and we took out what we brought in." Maybe even leave the place better than it was.

I'd love to see a dollar for dollar break down from last year. I.E... This is what we had to start with, this is what we raised, this is what we spent and where we spent it, this is how we decide what to spend where. I think all of those are very very important details. I know most of which is covered at the annual meeting. But, humor me.

Speaking of, who chooses how much to spend and where? Why only $1k to crawling for Reid? I know individuals, that(based on your 2017 990 form) make significantly less income than what sfwda brings in, that donated 2-3x that amount. But yet $40k+ was spent on lawyer fees. I get that you can't help everyone. But as many sfwda logo's that I saw all over that event, you'd think ya'll bought that kid his own hospital.

Also also, what is the story on the lawsuit that was mentioned during annual meeting? Something about land owners, the county, etc? They discussed the lawsuit as if everyone already knew exactly what the whole story was. I asked on the live chat, but was ignored.

None of that was meant to come across like an attack. Just got carried away.

With SFWDA being a non profit, shouldn't they have their 990/budget publicly accessible to anyone that wants to take a look and, not have to ask repeatedly for this information. I know other NP in my area make that public with easy accessibility.

The Luke · Dec 20, 2019

Wmikew06 said:
With SFWDA being a non profit, shouldn't they have their 990/budget public accessible to anyone that wants to take a look and, not have to ask repeatedly for this information. I know other NP in my area make that public with easy accessibility.

It is available. Just kind of vague.. You know, as most tax documents are. See link below.

990 Finder Search for Southern Four Wheel Drive in TN and it'll come up.

Wmikew06 · Dec 20, 2019

The Luke said:
It is available. Just kind of vague.. You know, as most tax documents are. See link below.

990 Finder Search for Southern Four Wheel Drive in TN and it'll come up.

70K+ for supplies and land/event rental! Is that what is spent on dixe/trail fest? Another question is 2015 they reported only $900 in membership dues/assessments ??????

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

The Luke said:
He has a good point about before and after care of a park at the sfwda events. One of the main reasons GMP has not sold is due to the damage done from the last ride there. Which was Dixie Run. The place was trashed. I get that some/if not most of it is on the park. But, being the group that sfwda is, You'd think that would be an excellent opportunity to step up and be an example for the offroad community. "Hey Look, we prepared, we enjoyed ourselves and we took out what we brought in." Maybe even leave the place better than it was.

I'd love to see a dollar for dollar break down from last year. I.E... This is what we had to start with, this is what we raised, this is what we spent and where we spent it, this is how we decide what to spend where. I think all of those are very very important details. I know most of which is covered at the annual meeting. But, humor me.

Speaking of, who chooses how much to spend and where? Why only $1k to crawling for Reid? I know individuals, that(based on your 2017 990 form) make significantly less income than what sfwda brings in, that donated 2-3x that amount. But yet $40k+ was spent on lawyer fees. I get that you can't help everyone. But as many sfwda logo's that I saw all over that event, you'd think ya'll bought that kid his own hospital.

Also also, what is the story on the lawsuit that was mentioned during annual meeting? Something about land owners, the county, etc? They discussed the lawsuit as if everyone already knew exactly what the whole story was. I asked on the live chat, but was ignored.

None of that was meant to come across like an attack. Just got carried away.

No, good Questions! I always want to know where amounts of money are going and why. If I don't know I assume they are spending it on Hookers and Blow.

We can only spend as much as we bring in, we have no credit. We use a Grant program to help manage this. The max a Grant can be done for is $5000, but this can be reapplied for in the same area if needed. Who can apply for a grant...ANYONE..no you don't have to be a member of SFWDA. Now how much do we give and to who. That depends on 2 things...How much we have and how much they ask for. The 40K+ has been spent over servals year and several grants. Some years with Crawling for Reid and St. Judes Four Wheeling For a Cure we have had $5000 to donate to each some years not as much.

Now how we give the money away we receive the grant review it with the board and leadership committee. The we vote on if its going to be awarded and how much. I will tell you if it passes the smell test and will effect multiple people and is for the greater good it will pass. Public or private parks both can apply.

The lawsuit is for the DBBB and a gate that is put up. The road is a county road which the County and the State recognize as a road. The land owner that the road crosses does not want people using it so he put a gate up. We have already won one battle in this area about the access and hopefully are fixing to win this one. Does that help?

Again I am going to the board about park conditions after events. It's a great point and great idea.

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

The Luke said:
It is available. Just kind of vague.. You know, as most tax documents are. See link below.

990 Finder Search for Southern Four Wheel Drive in TN and it'll come up.

See if this helps, Little more Friendly but not perfect.

The Luke · Dec 20, 2019

The grant cap is $5k? Why did dbbb get so much in 2019? Legal? What are sfwda's specific ties to dbbb? Isn't part of the land owned by sfwda?

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

The Luke said:
The grant cap is $5k? Why did dbbb get so much in 2019? Legal? What are sfwda's specific ties to dbbb? Isn't part of the land owned by sfwda?View attachment 115526

No that's a typo, That has been since day one over many years. Jeffrey Dozer, made a verbal correction on this. NO we don't own the land the land is owned by the county. The reason we have a major interest is that we need to set precedence in the state of Kentucky on historic roads and public rights. The same way it was done with the Rubicon trail.

Wmikew06 · Dec 20, 2019

J.P. said:
No that's a typo, That has been since day one over many years. Jeffrey Dozer, made a verbal correction on this. NO we don't own the land the land is owned by the county. The reason we have a major interest is that we need to set precedence in the state of Kentucky on historic roads and public rights. The same way it was done with the Rubicon trail.

What about Aetna Mountain and the lawsuit over the public road, where was sfwda when that was going on?

J.P. · Dec 20, 2019

Wmikew06 said:
What about Aetna Mountain and the lawsuit over the public road, where was sfwda when that was going on?

I remember this, we talked with...Kristy? The lady who managed the lease property over the railroad tracks. The told us they did not want our help. We also contacted Aetna nation with the same results. I was at the fund raiser ride and the "Final Ride" of Horse Power Hill before there was issues with the access. But that was me personally and not SFWDA. Nor was I a part of the board at that time.

redneckengineered · Dec 20, 2019

J.P. said:
I remember this, we talked with...Kristy? The lady who managed the lease property over the railroad tracks. The told us they did not want our help. We also contacted Aetna nation with the same results. I was at the fund raiser ride and the "Final Ride" of Horse Power Hill before there was issues with the access. But that was me personally and not SFWDA. Nor was I a part of the board at that time.