Ackerman steering effect.

[briejer]

I have noticed a good number of high steer arm that have the tie-rod inside of the balljoint. This produces reverse ackerman effect. All stock locations have the tie-rod outside of the balljoint resulting in proper ackerman angle.

I have spent a lot of time on my axles to achieve proper ackerman. It was once set up with reverse ackerman and the buggy plowed through corners.

I'm just curious if anyone gives a **** about corrrect ackerman?

Discuss:corn:

 

[64FJ40]

I'm just curious if anyone gives a **** about corrrect ackerman?

I think the short story is that most people don't.



But some rambling for rambling's sake:

But the orientation of the tie rod and whatever link you use to control your steering doesn't actually have any bearing on the Ackerman. It's determined by the distance and angular position from the knuckle's center of rotation of the tie rod attachment point. If the tie rod is in the right spot on the steering arm, it doesn't matter (as far as Ackerman angles go) where on the arm the ram/draglink/etc attaches.

I suspect that people have attempted to put the draglink connection as far out as possible in order to reduce steering effort (or maximize steering force), but that's just a guess.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

agreed about the bad geometry on arms. I have a bitch about the location of the TRE holes, if they would drill both arms you could swap tierod with draglink and solve alot of vehicles with a draglink that interfers with the tierod (crosses). thus not needing to move the steering box foward.

I think most companies think about the rim clearence when designing arms. I have done a few one off arms as close to the wheel as you can, and it still should be farther over in an ideal world.:beer:

 

[dr drae]

I think most companies think about the rim clearence when designing arms.

When I talked to WFO on the phone, this is what they said, tire clearance was their top priority. They said they have little/no concern for ackerman angle as "most the rigs using our arms won't see any street time".

Even w/the steering right arms, if you're running full hydro w/a double ended ram and don't get it in the right location it can screw up your ackerman.

 

[benw1]

I prefer parallel steering on an off-road rig, and I built my arms to give me parallel steering. Any ill effects on the street are covered up by other problems caused by big knobby tires and a welded rear.

 

[briejer]

I did my best to put steering arms infront of the axle for those who do not know what ackerman steering is.

 

[Roccrawler]

I would say it comes down to the fact how serious of a wheeler you are. I like the rocks so the less tire scrub and the better the ackernman angle is becomes the difference between sliding to my death or making the climb.

for the yellow brick road guys who really cares :;

originally mine was off being both arms were straight. It made a big difference fixing them. tires stick better when turning and crawling now.

:awesomework:

 

[crazybluerider1]

When I setup my steering on my new axle I made an effort to get as close as possible. I really dont have anything to compare it to though because the last axle was setup so poorly that it is hard to tell what change caused it to drive so much better. My last axle had horrible caster, ackerman that worked backwards of how it should and bad ball-joints.

 

[dr drae]

It was once set up with reverse ackerman and the buggy plowed through corners.

What was going on w/the front axle diff wise, Detroit, ARB, spool, other?

 

[briejer]

What was going on w/the front axle diff wise, Detroit, ARB, spool, other?

Air locker in a mog axle. the stock rear facing steering arms were flipped to have them forward, giving it opposite ackerman than stock. I bent them to have correct ackerman and now have a new heavy duty steering with proper ackerman on both axles:awesomework:

 

[Boxxerace]

So, tied to this good discussion, what arms are good and what arms are bad for the common axles (44, 60, mog I suppose and Toy)

 

[dr drae]

Air locker in a mog axle. the stock rear facing steering arms were flipped to have them forward, giving it opposite ackerman than stock. I bent them to have correct ackerman and now have a new heavy duty steering with proper ackerman on both axles:awesomework:

I hope that fixes it, a locked air locker will act more like a spool and in a front axle could still easily plow through a corner especially if the rear axle is still pushing...

 

[64FJ40]

So, tied to this good discussion, what arms are good and what arms are bad for the common axles (44, 60, mog I suppose and Toy)

For Toy, I think the best out there are built by Luke Porter at 4x4labs. He's even got 6-stud stuff now (and weld-on lugs to make your stock Aisin knuckles 6-stud). Looks like his website is in the middle of a re-design right now though... He sells different arms depending on your wheelbase - nobody else that I know of does that - and he definitely did his homework in calculating the Ackerman angles for his arms. Nothing but top-notch.

The only issue I could see is that with the tie rod behind the axle FJ80-style, there might be an issue with link suspensions?

 

[briejer]

I hope that fixes it, a locked air locker will act more like a spool and in a front axle could still easily plow through a corner especially if the rear axle is still pushing...

I do not have a problem with the ackernam in my current steering. I did several years ago for a short time and fixed it.

The point of the thread is from a conversation I had with a wheeling buddy who has steering arms that give him negitive ackerman. His arguement for not lookng into correcting it was" If it works, dont fix it" with that attitude he should be driving a Geo instead of a buggy.

I do respect the opinion of those that have done the research and have decided that zero ackerman(straight arms) is for them.

 

[dr drae]

It's interesting that MOST aftermarket arms either have zero or negative ackerman, the aftermarket steering arm market is horribly lacking in options for proper ackerman arms.


You said you had your arms "bent"? details?

 

[briejer]

You said you had your arms "bent"? details?

I heated them up with a torch, welded a 6' pipe to them and bent them out, making sure to use my measuring tape on occassion.

 

[Pook]

I put a custom width diff in the ftoy last winter, doing that let me ditch the wheel spacers and let me lose a lot of wheel scrub which in turn helped me gain more steering angle.

Ditching the scrub made a huge improvement, helping me stick lines and easier steering.

 

[CrustyJeep]

I don't think about it, I pretty much dismissed it long ago as inconsequential on the sort of terrain I see the most. The point about dry rock is a good one for sure, though.

 

[darius]

Proper ackerman is way overlooked constantly, having improper ackerman hurt's in all sort's of terrain, I don't think there is a whole lot of differance in mud or rock as in both having negative ackerman mean's losing considerable "possible" steering. I see a lot of companies drilling rod end holes inside the balljoint and have also heard the excuse of "tire clearance", I would think the mall crawler's would also be interested in being able to one shot that front row spot at the mall.

Another topic, probably for another thread I see this equally as much, proper ratio between steering arm and pitman arm length.

 

[Pook]

Another topic, probably for another thread I see this equally as much, proper ratio between steering arm and pitman arm length.

x2 its a big part of why I get much more steering angle than your typical Toyota.