Buggy turning aid?

skipnrocks · Nov 20, 2015

So I am finally getting drive my buggy. It has a psc double ended hydro setup. It turns awesomely sharp to the passenger side and not so awesomely sharp to the drivers. When I set up the steering I thought the orbital had a 2.5 turn click to click then realized when bleeding the system it doesn't have stops in the orbital. What would cause this difference?

wizzo · Nov 20, 2015

all PSC parts? I'm not aware of any "stops" in my orbital. I have a complete PSC kit. Is your ram off set one way or another? steering links the same length?

skipnrocks · Nov 20, 2015

Yea ram is centered. And arms are the same length. Maybe I need someone else to drive it and I'll stand in front and watch. I wonder if it's an illusion from the drivers seat. Or maybe there is s stop or bind I'm un aware of.

I have the 40 spline stuff milled to turn 50 deg without binding. Without replacing my ram could I shorten my high steer arms to get more steering?

wizzo · Nov 20, 2015

post a pic of your front axle with tires pointed strait. could be angles through the steering cycle

skipnrocks · Nov 20, 2015

Will do. I get home on Sunday and will get a few views and maybe a turning vid

Blase · Nov 20, 2015

are you steering stops on the knuckle adjusted different?

TBItoy · Nov 20, 2015

I would bet that the ram is either in line, or slightly in front of the steering arm holes.

That will usually give you negative ackerman.

Meaning your outside tire turns more than the inside tire. So, your driver tire will turn sharp to the right, and not so sharp to the left. (vice versa with the other side)

Orbitals dont' have stops, they just move fluid unit something binds or the ram bottoms out.

skipnrocks · Nov 20, 2015

TBItoy said:
I would bet that the ram is either in line, or slightly in front of the steering arm holes.

That will usually give you negative ackerman.

Meaning your outside tire turns more than the inside tire. So, your driver tire will turn sharp to the right, and not so sharp to the left. (vice versa with the other side)

Orbitals dont' have stops, they just move fluid unit something binds or the ram bottoms out.

I think the ram is pretty close to lines up. Maybe just a hair behind the mounts. I have the Artec front truss with integrated ram mount.

I will double check my stops but I think their not different

TacomaJD · Nov 20, 2015

Idk what was wrong with the full hydro steering on my old rig, it was double ended Trail Gear setup. I could get someone to sit in it and turn the wheel while I watched and it would turn one way farther than the other. It would bottom the ram out turning one way, which was fine, but the other way it would stop turning and still have nearly an inch of shaft showing. Mechanically, the components weren't binding, the ram just seemed to not go all the way to one side like the other side did. Never figured it out, I just dealt with it. Hated sharp turns to that side, had to make 3 point turns turning one way on the trail, whereas it would make the same degree turn just fine if I was turning to the other way.

skipnrocks · Nov 22, 2015

I got home tonight and tested the buggy steering out. It turns equally in both directions. It turns very sharp on the inside of the turn not very sharp on the outside. Can I assume that this is correct geometry or should I somehow test my akerman angle?

TBItoy · Nov 22, 2015

Re:

If the tire on the inside of the turn, turns sharper, then that would be proper Ackerman. What steering arms do you have/how are the tie rods attached?

skipnrocks · Nov 22, 2015

I don't remember what arms I have I want to say ballistic fab springless. But it's been so long. Their attached to the ram with a12-15inch control arm. Equal length on both side. It doesn't turn like I think it should though. I can adjust the stops though I think more. Right now its stock Dana 60 setup.

skipnrocks · Nov 23, 2015

My tires are slightly toed out. I just haven't had a chance to align them. Will this play any effect on how it turns on the trails?

TacomaJD · Nov 23, 2015

Re: Re: Buggy turning aid?

SBJeepn said:
My tires are slightly toed out. I just haven't had a chance to align them. Will this play any effect on how it turns on the trails?

The effect may be noticeable or not much at all, but I def would try to align them best I could as the first step of improvement to eliminate that as a factor.

paradisepwoffrd · Nov 23, 2015

Re:

If your ram is bottoming out in both directions, adjusting the stops won't help. If you have ram travel left, turn in the stops but don't let the shafts bind.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

skipnrocks · Dec 1, 2015

Ok I have been troubleshooting this. Here is what I know. The ram goes equally in both directions. it goes till about an inch of shaft is showing which I have been told is normal. I looked at my dads buggy which turns much better and his high steer arms are not as long they are probably an inch shorter than mine, right now the bolt on my high steer lines up with the factory knuckle mount. My turning doesn't reach the bumps there is probably 3/8in left at full turn to hit the factory stops. I have my 40 spline shafts machined to steer up to 50 deg i believe without binding.

It would seem my options are to either move my mounting hole closer to the knuckle which I know will take some power from the system. And the option would be to drop 350 on a 10 in ram? Unless I am missing something?

Any help would be great.

John Galbreath Jr. · Dec 1, 2015

Remove heims from steering arms on both sides just to verify there is not a bind in the axle somewhere. At the same time, you can test the ram for full movement. If both are working proper then look at the high steer arm bolt location.

zjtrey · Dec 2, 2015

It really sounds like you have the high steer arm bolt located incorrectly..

I screwed it up on my first try in my new buggy, I ended up taking the bolt out of the high steer arm, swinging the tire on each side from lock to lock and finding the hole location that was be best compromise. There are a lot of variables to compensate for and as others have said the distance from centerline of the axle to the center of the steering cylinder is a big one. being that your using the artec mount, i doubt its really that far off so i really think you can get the results your looking for by moving the bolt hole and i really doubt you'll lose enough steering power to be noticable...

skipnrocks · Dec 2, 2015

I have checked clearance and tolerances and here is what I know so far. I have no restrictions in the cylinder or the axle. My arms are a little long toeing my tires out. The effect on turning with this seems to be since the arms are too long I get the inside tire turning dramatically more than the outside. I know that some of this is necessary however it is exaggerated right now. I hope I am doing a good job of explaining that. Or had pics to show but it is having an effect. The cylinder cant get much closer to the axle housing the cylinder just clears the diff cover.

And then compared to my dads high steer arms mine are about an inch longer than his from center-line of the axle to center-line of the bolt. I think my only option after shortening my arms going from my cylinder to the axle is to move the mounting hole an inch in and see what happens. I guess worst case I lose my high steer arms and need to get another set.

What are your measurements from center-line of the axle to high steer bolt?

zjtrey · Dec 2, 2015

if im understanding you correctly, your links between the cylinder and the hi steer arms are too long.. that will definitely cause you to not hit the steering stops. that compounded with incorrect hole location and things get wacky...

i recommend disconnecting the links from the hi steer arm and cycling both the knuckles and the cylinder to find the sweet spot and make your changes from there... that way you aren't making any changes you can't undo.. once you feel like your close, clamp the heim to the arms and cycle the steering with the cylinder to be sure before you drill a new hole or shorten the links...

I'll try to remember to get you a the centerline dimensions and post them tonight or tomorrow.