51" Toyota rears in a 1st Gen?

[WHITE TRASH1]

so the marlin springs have been sold. Looking to go with stock rears up front. Can I make the 51" rears in my truck end up matching? I've got some 3" lift packs, 2 sets of fronts and one set of rears, to play the mix and match game with. Looking at buiilding a drop/forward front spring hanger and move rear shackle hanger back to accomodate, along with 5" shackles front and rear.

Are t he benefits of moving the pivot point of the rear shackle above the frame worth the work involved? I've seen it done a couple times now, and it seems to make sense since you can use an ober long shackle to gain the benefits of the longer swing arc without throwing your departure angle to **** and keeping it low.

Sure you can mix and match and come up with something that works for you. I personally run my shackle in the rear up higher than stock by about 2" and I like it. not only does it allow for a longer shackle for travel reasons but if you keep the eye's of the spring pack close to level or even with the shackle end up a bit higher than the front you will get less effective anti squat and wrap.

 

[wentz912]

Can you explain the anti squat thing to me a bit? I've heard a LOT about it but none of my searches have netted me anything that I understand.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

Can you explain the anti squat thing to me a bit? I've heard a LOT about it but none of my searches have netted me anything that I understand.

With leaves you can control how they react to throttle by how they are mounted. If the front of the pack is mounted a few inches higher than the shackle end when you are on full throttle the spring will want to wrap and make the tail of the rig stand up which is anti squat. The problem with too much anti squat is when you are climbing a hill the rear axle will want to drive under the rig.


A very exaggerated example is a short arm lift on a tj/zj. When they turn a corner and put the pedal down the rear axle will walk right under the rig due to the short arms and the steep angles they are mounted at.

Such as this genius..

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c05-zaVcyNc[/YT]




If you mount the front half of the springs lower than the rear the axle will have to fight to make the rear of the rig go up or down so it'll be a bit more neutral and stable.

 

[wentz912]

I think I understand it better now.

I've been trying to think of my numbers without my truck here in front of me, and I recall the frame rails being about 3.25" Tall Outside dimension, since 3 inch tube fits inside of them, and the stock shackle hanger is, estimating here, 1.5" below the botom of the frame rail to the center of the shackle pin. so if I flip mine to the top and use 1" above the frame rail to the center of my shackle pin, I'll have moved my pivot point upwards 5.75", which means I need a 6" long shackle just to get the spring/shackle pivot point to the same point that the shackle/frame pivot is now. What would be a good number to go with as far as spacing beyond that? 3" That would get the rear end of my spring about a half inch higher than stock, which is a good thing? or do stock shackles give me an acceptable anti-squat?

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

I wouldn't go on top of the frame, you'd have to run a recockulously long shackle to have any travel. Just stick a piece of tube in the middle of the frame and put yj spring bushings in it. A 6" center to center shackle is a good max length before you start having issues with them twisting and leaning real hard. Do that so you can keep the space between the frame and the spring close to stock but with a nice long shackle.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

I think I understand it better now.

I've been trying to think of my numbers without my truck here in front of me, and I recall the frame rails being about 3.25" Tall Outside dimension, since 3 inch tube fits inside of them, and the stock shackle hanger is, estimating here, 1.5" below the botom of the frame rail to the center of the shackle pin. so if I flip mine to the top and use 1" above the frame rail to the center of my shackle pin, I'll have moved my pivot point upwards 5.75", which means I need a 6" long shackle just to get the spring/shackle pivot point to the same point that the shackle/frame pivot is now. What would be a good number to go with as far as spacing beyond that? 3" That would get the rear end of my spring about a half inch higher than stock, which is a good thing? or do stock shackles give me an acceptable anti-squat?

Dude you are thinking this out way too much.

Just look here for a good low sitting combo that works great with a minumum amount of work. http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47583

Just read thru it it should answer any questions.

 

[wentz912]

I wouldn't go on top of the frame, you'd have to run a recockulously long shackle to have any travel. Just stick a piece of tube in the middle of the frame and put yj spring bushings in it. A 6" center to center shackle is a good max length before you start having issues with them twisting and leaning real hard. Do that so you can keep the space between the frame and the spring close to stock but with a nice long shackle.

Isn't a ridiculously long shackle going to be ok though, I'll get the benefits of the longer swing arc without having a ton of shackle lift. I'm still in the planning stage on this so I'm tossing ideas all over the place.

 

[wentz912]

Dude you are thinking this out way too much.

Just look here for a good low sitting combo that works great with a minumum amount of work. http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47583

Just read thru it it should answer any questions.

Brad i'm thinking about it this much because I only want to have to do it once, but don't want to do the same thing that everybody else does. i like the flex that people get out of the cevy 63s, I just hate how damn long they are. In my eyes, they're excessively long. I want to use a shorter spring and end up with the same results, and I think I can do it, just exploring options on the how. Plus, every broke ass and their cousin does 63's

 

[CHOP SHOP]

every broke ass and their cousin does 63's

if your not a broke ass cousin then get some coilovers.

Everybody does it cuz it works good and is cheap. If thats not what your after then you should consider building a nissan or S10 if you wan to be different and unique.

If you are broke and want to wheel reliably then..............




.......................63s a rufs.

Short springs just dont last long when bent over and over. Long springs dont mind so much.

 

[wentz912]

the 56" springs that AP, Marlin and TG and whoever else sells seem to do ok? i figure if I can move just ONE hanger and run a little longer spring by using the 51s, if I destroy them I can always go to 63s. I'm sure I will be perfectly ok with the 51s for a good long while though, since I don't beat on my truck near as hard as pretty much everybody else on this board wheels, or at least builds their truck to be wheeled.

and I never said that I wasn't broke, I just don't want to do that same thing as every other broke guy. trying to think outside the box just a touch maybe. What's the point in being exactly the same as everybody else?

 

[CHOP SHOP]

the 56" springs that AP, Marlin and TG and whoever else sells seem to do ok? i figure if I can move just ONE hanger and run a little longer spring by using the 51s, if I destroy them I can always go to 63s. I'm sure I will be perfectly ok with the 51s for a good long while though, since I don't beat on my truck near as hard as pretty much everybody else on this board wheels, or at least builds their truck to be wheeled.

and I never said that I wasn't broke, I just don't want to do that same thing as every other broke guy. trying to think outside the box just a touch maybe. What's the point in being exactly the same as everybody else?

I was at a shop yesterday (not mine) and pointed out a bending/bent TG spring that was less than a year old.

The owner was kinda bummed nad even said he got the HD ones cuz he had heard about them sucking.

I firmly believe than APs TGs and Marlins springs come out of the same mill.

I have tried to be different a million times. I have learned alot from putting junky setups on my numerous wheelers and what I linked in those two threads was what I learned from wheeling and abusing alot of different setups, not by listening to what the webwheelers tell me.

All the folks I know that "dare to be different" wheel once or twice a year and will defend the setup they run. When you get advice, look up the advice giving persons other posts. Look for trail runs. You just dont find them. They are right tho, it probably worked great the two times they wheeled it before parting it out or building another internet lifelong build.

 

[wentz912]

do you have any experience with the mounting the shackle above the frame bit? I'm really curious to see how it works in real world situations, since theoretically it seems like it would work awesome.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

the desert guys put the shackle above the frame all the time but they don't sidehill which would sick with a super long shackle..


If you want long travel and short springs inboard the rears. I'm running 52" chevy's inboarded with shackle behind the frame and they kick ass.

 

[wentz912]

Side hilling with the long shackle resulting in the uphill side un loading and possibly flopping me?

 

[CHOP SHOP]

inboarding springs will make it flex but does nothing to the spring rate. It will force it to flex cuz of the added leverage, but will be a shitty stiff ride when dropping both rear tires off of a ledge together. It will ride way shitty when hauling ass too.

Too long of a shackle will have n side to side support and eat bushings fast.

An angled shackle helps to let a long spring droop alot and provides a leverage to kinda pull the spring flat for a better ride.

The down side is can pull a crappy spring really flat for good.

A super long shackle will have the same effects as runnin a shorter shacker at close to perpendicular to the frame. No leverage on the spring to make it droop more or flatten out better.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

inboarding springs will make it flex but does nothing to the spring rate. It will force it to flex cuz of the added leverage, but will be a shitty stiff ride when dropping both rear tires off of a ledge together. It will ride way shitty when hauling ass too.

When was the last time you ran inboarded springs? Or have you ever?

 

[CHOP SHOP]

When was the last time you ran inboarded springs? Or have you ever?

years ago on my chev. and also on a friends toyota years ago.

I used to have a ghetto coil setup way back and had the coils run too close together and it always flopped over from side to side til I spread them out and then it didnt flex as good but stayed upright. It wass harsh dropping off of stuff too. Bottom line was it was too stiff and the coils being closer together let it flop around like a fish only cuz it was closer to center of the trucks centerline and the axle had alot more leverage on it one tire at a time. But it was now a floppy and stiff, bammer.

All I was saying is the spring rate is not going to soften up or change, just that the truck wont be stable at all if inboarded.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

the truck wont be stable at all if inboarded.

And that right there is where you are wrong... If you build the pack with inboarding in mind you won't have stability issues. My spring packs are rather thick but they do have a rather nice amount of travel for what they are. I don't need a traction bar and it doesn't ride rough either. Sure the rear is a touch stiff compared to the front but the front has an engine on top of it.

I used to know a kid in yelm with a yota that inboarded his stock springs so they were less than 24" apart.. Yea it flexed like all hell but if you looked at it wrong it'd flop. :haha:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

And that right there is where you are wrong... If you build the pack with inboarding in mind you won't have stability issues. My spring packs are rather thick but they do have a rather nice amount of travel for what they are. I don't need a traction bar and it doesn't ride rough either. Sure the rear is a touch stiff

trashy I know your rig wont go fast enough to ride harsh, its just not possible.

Im sure yours is plenty stable with fullsize one tons and low with 44s:; BUT his is a normal lifted toyota is is not going to bennefit from inboarding much other than MAD ramp flex, not good trail manners.

 

[wentz912]

Everything ok guys? :fawkdancesmiley:

The current verdict is to go 63s in the rear and use the bajillion different leaves I've got laying around to build a good RUF back.

The marlins are gone. Got installed on a friends truck about an hour ago.