Air shock / coilover / anti rock bar help question????

TacomaJD · Nov 30, 2012

Bear with me, I'm gonna try avoiding being lengthy with this.

I want to FIX this Toyota from leaning like a sumbitch when you turn on the trails in 4wd (locked fr/rr with flanges). The leaning while turning isn't as bad as it leaning really bad while driving across simple uneven terrain. It makes it very possible to flip over on **** you shouldn't ever have to worry about flipping on when paired with the high belly pan clearance (center of gravity).

This probably will not get fixed anytime soon, as I'm sure the resolution will not be a cheap mod and my pockets ain't as deep as most of you cats :****: SO, I want to figure out the best and right way to fix the problem and I'm gonna start saving my pennies. I would really like to avoid putting an anti rock bar on it if possible, but if that's what it takes, I'll go that route.

*I've wondered about adding nitrogen to the 16" Fox air shocks on it now, but from what I read, all that will affect is the ride height....which is perfect now and does not need to be tampered with.

*If an anti rock bar ends up being the best route, do they affect or limit articulation/travel or pose any other unseen problems/limitations?

*I've also heard the topic of the 4 link bars' geometry being off causing the suspension to unload incorrectly....if indeed that is so, I'm not modifying any of that, so I need a secondary solution.

*Lastly, what's the likelihood of coilovers being the answer? If so, I will buy a set of King 16" Coilovers and be done with it and be happy. I want to make sure somehow that is the answer first before I spend $1,000+ on a pair though. Per downsouthmotorsports.com, when ordering a complete set of King Coilovers, it looks like they valve them and select spring rate best suited for your application before they ship them.

Also make note, the front end is leaf sprung and has long bump stops in order to keep the 39" BFG's out of the fender well and anything else...so when climbing up something at an angled approach like the picture below, it is expected to throw the chassis due to limited up-travel on the front suspension. BUT it leans near this bad just normal trail riding on uneven terrain and while turning on flat trails in 4wd locked fr/rr.

Any info or links to any literature will be appreciated, I have read into air shocks and coilovers a decent bit, but I'm sure there's still tons of literature that I've yet to find. Here are some pics to show belly clearance, 4 link detail, etc.

A good look at the link bars molaugh

TacomaJD · Nov 30, 2012

Also while looking at King shock bodies for coilovers they offer a Coil Carrier coilover, Emulsion coilover, Comp. adjuster coilover, and the basic remote resi. coilover shock. Since the coil carrier has no valving in it, I think I can eliminate that one myself.....I also think the basic coilover shock setup with remote resi would be plenty instead of paying extra for the Comp. Adjuster coilover....what I don't know anything about is the Emulsion coilover. Someone shed some light here, but I'm thinking the basic Coilover remote resi shock without Comp. adjuster would be prime choice IF coilovers end up being a solution to my leaning problem.

Coil Carrier coilover with springs (no valving so shock body does not accept nitrogen)
http://downsouthmotorsports.com/i-2068709-king-2-0-performance-series-coil-carrier-shock-with-springs.html

Emulsion coilover shock with springs
http://downsouthmotorsports.com/i-789567-king-2-0-performance-series-coil-over-emulsion-shock-with-springs.html

Comp. adjuster coilover with springs
http://downsouthmotorsports.com/i-8121469-king-2-0-performance-series-coil-over-shock-with-comp-adjuster-springs.html

Coilover shock with springs
http://downsouthmotorsports.com/i-788446-king-2-0-performance-series-coil-over-shock-with-springs.html

ETO · Nov 30, 2012

The easiest and cheapest thing I can think of is to try and raise the oil level in the shocks some and leave the nitrogen pressure the same since you like the ride height. This will make the spring rate more progressive and stiffen up faster during compression and should keep some of the lean out of the truck but it wont do anything about the problem of air shocks unloading easy. You could maybe try a center limiting strap with just a little bit of slack at ride height but on a full bodied truck id say you will still want a sway bar to be happy. Take a look at these just like the Anti Rock but a little bit cheaper. Here is a link.
http://store.tk1racing.com/searchresults.asp?cat=82

TBItoy · Nov 30, 2012

Re: Re: Air shock / coilover / anti rock bar help question????

The suspension geometry is your main problem. Along with no front suspension travel...

That truck sits up high enough to get some good travel out of the front. Cut that thing up and let it work.

You can tune the air shock for slow rebound (plug bleed holes, heavier rebound valving)

Also, you'll want to run as little pressure as possible to achieve ride height, this requires running enough oil to get your ramp rate up so the shocks don't bottom out. (up to the point that you don't hydro lock the shocks)

Sawzall has made some good posts on here about what he did to make air shocks work for him.

BUG-E J · Nov 30, 2012

My yota buggy on air shocks done the same thing. Swaybar on back fixed it. I got an extra speedway engineering bar at the house I will sell you dirt cheap but it may be too long. I will measure it over some beers when I get home. PM me your cell number and I will just text you .

TacomaJD · Nov 30, 2012

Re: Re: Air shock / coilover / anti rock bar help question????

TBItoy said:
The suspension geometry is your main problem. Along with no front suspension travel...

That truck sits up high enough to get some good travel out of the front. Cut that thing up and let it work.

You can tune the air shock for slow rebound (plug bleed holes, heavier rebound valving)

Also, you'll want to run as little pressure as possible to achieve ride height, this requires running enough oil to get your ramp rate up so the shocks don't bottom out. (up to the point that you don't hydro lock the shocks)

Sawzall has made some good posts on here about what he did to make air shocks work for him.

Now that's an idea too, I may look at doing some cutting and sledge hammering one day down the road and shortening the bumpstops a little. But still the main problem is the leaning while turning and all that ****, angled approach chassis lean is tolerable and can be avoided alot of the time on obstacles.

BUG-E J said:
My yota buggy on air shocks done the same thing. Swaybar on back fixed it. I got an extra speedway engineering bar at the house I will sell you dirt cheap but it may be too long. I will measure it over some beers when I get home. PM me your cell number and I will just text you .

PM sent bud :drinkers:

Elliott · Nov 30, 2012

Adding oil and stiffening your Valving should do it, a sway bar will fix it but it will just be a patch that will limit your travel.I would go coil overs before I did that.

TacomaJD · Nov 30, 2012

That's what I was thinking, right now most all my flex is in the rear end and it has alot of travel. I figure an anti rock bar would prolly cut that **** in half or come close to it anyway. I don't want that, I'd rather deal with it leaning.

The thing about the coilovers is the logical thinking of if you get them stought enough to prevent body roll, would that also not be limiting up travel since the spring rate would be so stought? Or would good valving in the shock bodies of the coilover paired with the dual rate springs have a good chance of preventing it all the way around. If someone thinks strongly that coilovers will for sure fix it, I'll start dumping cash in my piggy bank til I have enough to drop on a brand new set of Kings.

TacomaJD · Nov 30, 2012

I'm also about to take that spare out of the bed too because I'm tired of not being able to see behind me when I turn around or in the rearview mirror. So that will deduct roughly 150 lbs of top loaded weight off the rear end, but probably not enough to tell any sort of difference without doing anything else to it.

Elliott · Nov 30, 2012

My jeep has Chevy square body springs with just 3 leaves left in the front and xj coils in the rear and it handles perfect. I honestly like the coils in the rear better than the air shocks I've put on the rears before.I think coil overs and you would be happy if the 4 link geometry is right but if the oil and Valving doesn't fix it try some coils till you get the coin saved up.

kmcminn · Nov 30, 2012

I am no suspension expert. But something is way off. Seeing you drive it down an access trail last weekend I thought it was broken.

ranger11 · Nov 30, 2012

Im no expert, but my truck is similar and I have coils on all 4 corners. My front coils seem to be stiff making the rear seem soft, like the front is causing body roll and theres nothing on the rear to control it. Mine isnt as bad as yours but over the winter I plan to play with the front springs and see what happens. I also plan to see how things work on the ramp at chooco next weekend to see how much the front is compressing when the rear is at full droop.

skipnrocks · Nov 30, 2012

We had the same issue on my pops buggy. Added oil and it was a whole new rig, no body roll...

Neal3000 · Dec 1, 2012

Suck down winchs front and rear with in-dash controls would help, you could suck the rear end down on sidehills etc

peanut · Dec 1, 2012

what size shocks you have 2.0 or 2.5 more oil will help alot

TacomaJD · Dec 1, 2012

They are 2.0's. Maybe the adding oil trick will work...my next question would be what is the process for adding oil to air shocks? I'm completely new to the whole 4 link / air shock deal. My Tacoma was leaf sprung all the way around.

Elliott · Dec 1, 2012

Take all the weight off the shocks first, they have to be fully extended with no weight or it will push oil out.

skipnrocks · Dec 1, 2012

Elliott said:
Take all the weight off the shocks first, they have to be fully extended with no weight or it will push oil out.

we used to just let the nitrogen out with weight on and then add oil in through the schrader valve with a kids syringe for medicine. And then take the weight off to fill back up with nitro...

Ragged · Dec 2, 2012

IMO it looks like the air shocks are mounted too low for your four link. With your set up the shocks can really only travel down so as the truck articultes your four link is trying to 'screw' the diff under the truck. If you had shorter coil-overs (or 16s mounted higher) you could dial in more uptravel, keep your ride height AND your link geometry would work far better as it articulated. Another way to look at it: as your rear diff articulates now the diff gets further away from the truck, like driving a truck with 1" of lift and changing to 12" as it articulates: far less stable. (Your roll axis gets further away from your centre of gravity).

If you look at a well build Bouncer or Crawler (or a standard 4wd) from the front or back while it articulates you will see the centre of the diff doesn't move much while the wheels move a lot (this is good), with yours it looks like one wheel doesn't move at all, the diff centre moves alot and the other wheel moves a huge amount. Oil volume, coil-overs in the same spot and sway bars wont fix this. A limit strap would help a little but you will only get a tiny amount of travel.

I think your options are either change your air shock mounts and four link geometry or get shorter coil-overs. It's hard to see what your anti-squat % would be like from the pics so I can't comment if that's part of the problem.

Hope that helps.

TacomaJD · Dec 3, 2012

It has a center limiting strap over the rear diff, only has a little bit of slack in it while sittin in the garage on flat ground...so the diff shouldn't be moving just a whole lot and should be staying centered. Idk, such an aggravating problem to try to fix molaugh

I mean it's not the end of the world if I end up not doing anything about it...it's still fun to drive and performs well. It just feels sketchy at times. And also in 2wd, it doesn't lean near as bad while turning.....but I can't ride around in 2wd on all the trails all the time.