Can u have to much?

leeadam94 · Jan 7, 2019

So when it come to the Offroad sport, there is many differences in vehicles depending on style, usage, terrain,etc. Having said that I'm looking for input on suspension opinions. I realize suspension travel is generally based on what the vehicle was build for,(speed,crawling,or both). For me as a trail rider I want the best for all around. So the question is, Can you have to much suspension travel? Why is it uncommon to see long shocks(18-20inch) or trailing arms on crawlers? Or why people limiting suspension?
This idea has evolved from wanting to change the rear suspension on my rig for more travel. Just don't want to make it worse

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BUG-E J · Jan 7, 2019

If it works dont change it.

But if you are wanting too it's all about what you want it to do. I like my up travel to soak up the bumps. My limit straps are almost tight but my ride height is 24ish at the belly. I dont want my tire dropping into a hole if I'm trying to jump it. Alot of flex will start causing binding issues and possibly your shock angle and or link angle to go goofy when going any kind of speed. If your going real slow crazy flex is your friend. Good luck.

blacksheep10 · Jan 7, 2019

More uptravel is your friend.

Bebop · Jan 7, 2019

leeadam94 said:
So when it come to the Offroad sport, there is many differences in vehicles depending on style, usage, terrain,etc. Having said that I'm looking for input on suspension opinions. I realize suspension travel is generally based on what the vehicle was build for,(speed,crawling,or both). For me as a trail rider I want the best for all around. So the question is, Can you have to much suspension travel? Why is it uncommon to see long shocks(18-20inch) or trailing arms on crawlers? Or why people limiting suspension?
This idea has evolved from wanting to change the rear suspension on my rig for more travel. Just don't want to make it worse

I'm no pro shock tuner but from what I understand shaft speed is the limiting factor with the long travel shocks. They can't move fast enough.

I'll see how I like trailing arms, but according to a few guys I trust (Phil Licciardi being one of them), the better the suspension works the better it will work everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's at speed or rockcrawling. I'll give that theory a try and report.

My buggy has 8" uptravel upfront (14" shocks) and 12" in the back (14" shocks on trailing arms).

Edit : I'd add that the longer the travel, the harder it is to control body movements. Better be prepared to spend time shock and sway bar tuning.

bgredjeep · Jan 7, 2019

My rig wasn't built with trailing arms in mind. Now if I wanted to add them it would be very difficult to package. without setting the rear axle back a good bit further.

Another issue on a crawler is that many (most) trailing arms are bent down to limit rotation, and this can really hang a rig up in crawling/breakover situations. Straight arms, like Burkey's, or upper link mounted shocks (several of the Jimmy's 4x4 rigs) avoid that issue.

If I was building a new rig today, I'd strongly consider including trailing arms in my plans from the start. The guys I know that have them love them, and their rigs work really well, other than the random obstacle that hangs them up and gives them hell. No matter what you build you'll always end up with a certain situation that has your rig's number. I think trailing arms on a trail rig are a great idea, and you don't have to run bypass shocks to make it work.

slravenel · Jan 7, 2019

If its not tuned, its going to suck(**) no matter how much travel you have...more travel wont fix anything. I would probably argue that unless its tuned, adding more of it will probably make things worse (body roll, blowing through the travel, over extending everything and binding stuff up, etc etc). That will get worse if there is more travel to deal with. I have axle mounted 2.5 resi shocks on all 4 corners with about 7-8" uptravel and i can tell you right now, it crawls 100x better than it did before, it hits ledges 100x better than it did before, it jumps 100x better than it did before, it bombs the most rutted out trails and nuisance rocks 100x better than it did before. Tuning doesnt just make it go faster better.

One of the biggest benefits (beyond it just riding so much better) on a trail buggy is that I can back up and hit a ledge so much harder than some of my wheeling buddies and all 4 of my tires stay on the ground instead of the front bouncing up, or the rear catching a bunch of air when the rear tires hit. It allows you to keep that valuable momentum and stay moving forward. Tuning and suspension work is not exclusive to go fast...it will make it better in every single regard.

Trailing arms have their pros and cons in a rock crawler...depending on design, they can really inhibit your ground clearance. People use limit straps to protect their shocks and keep binding out of the equation. That all being said...just adding more travel likely isnt the answer to making your suspension better. I would bet almost all of my money that simply tuning what you have will show you an entirely new ride.

In short....Tune; dont just throw longer shocks at it and expect it to be better.

**I use suck in a way comparing it to tuned. I thought mine rode fine before...then it was tuned and I look back at just how shitty non-tuned was. Spend the money. Tune your ****...you wont regret it.

MoparMan · Jan 7, 2019

I'll probably never own anything that will concern me about this kind of stuff. But, everytime I read stuff about suspension travel it makes me think about back around 2001 when I seen a guy trail riding with a Golden Eagle CJ7 on 1/4 ellipticals and the down travel he had was crazy. Anyways, carry on.......

kmcminn · Jan 8, 2019

MoparMan said:
I'll probably never own anything that will concern me about this kind of stuff. But, everytime I read stuff about suspension travel it makes me think about back around 2001 when I seen a guy trail riding with a Golden Eagle CJ7 on 1/4 ellipticals and the down travel he had was crazy. Anyways, carry on.......

My old jeep had a quarter elliptical on it when I bought it. It sucked.

MoparMan · Jan 8, 2019

kmcminn said:
My old jeep had a quarter elliptical on it when I bought it. It sucked.

I hear ya........I'm not saying it's a great setup. I'm just saying it was crazy watching him make climbs.....the rear end looked like it was gonna fall out from under it.

CHASMAN9 · Jan 8, 2019

kmcminn said:
My old jeep had a quarter elliptical on it when I bought it. It sucked.

Did you own the Southern Off Road blue jeep with 1/4 elliptical? :dunno:

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kmcminn · Jan 8, 2019

CHASMAN9 said:
Did you own the Southern Off Road blue jeep with 1/4 elliptical?

ADMINISTRATOR

No it was the white jeep. It was btf quarter eliptical.

CHASMAN9 · Jan 8, 2019

kmcminn said:
No it was the white jeep. It was btf quarter eliptical.

Got ya.

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The Luke · Jan 8, 2019

By tuning, you mean "+- one tennis ball". Right?

leeadam94 · Jan 10, 2019

Bebop said:
I'm no pro shock tuner but from what I understand shaft speed is the limiting factor with the long travel shocks. They can't move fast enough.

I'll see how I like trailing arms, but according to a few guys I trust (Phil Licciardi being one of them), the better the suspension works the better it will work everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's at speed or rockcrawling. I'll give that theory a try and report.

My buggy has 8" uptravel upfront (14" shocks) and 12" in the back (14" shocks on trailing arms).

Edit : I'd add that the longer the travel, the harder it is to control body movements. Better be prepared to spend time shock and sway bar tuning.

This is all great info that gets left in the dark sometimes. I totally agree with the idea of shock being to long now that I think about the shock shafts speed. Seems to be a problem I've seen with my buggy being so light. Even with very light valving I can't get the shocks to move as fast as I need them. Really has me thinking. I can see why people use trailing arms for more pressure on the shocks for tuning purposes. Thanks for the feedback.

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leeadam94 · Jan 10, 2019

I would also like to say I am no sock tuner and would say I have no idea what I'm doing but I have had multiple shocks apart and changed valving multiple times. Recorded the results and changed of needed. But the rear suspension I'm referencing is on my single seat rig that is light weight and I'm always looking for improvement. I realize my shock package is very limited as far as tuning. I run 16 inch 2.0 Fox air shocks. Yes, I said air shocks! But I will say I've had very good luck so far tuning them for high speed and crawling. Might be looking into coil overs for the rear just for spring rate purposes. Thanks for all the feedback. I love reading detailed tech info. I'm a man to gamble, so with that said there will be some upgrade coming to the grass hopper. Thanks all

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Bebop · Jan 10, 2019

leeadam94 said:
This is all great info that gets left in the dark sometimes. I totally agree with the idea of shock being to long now that I think about the shock shafts speed. Seems to be a problem I've seen with my buggy being so light. Even with very light valving I can't get the shocks to move as fast as I need them. Really has me thinking. I can see why people use trailing arms for more pressure on the shocks for tuning purposes. Thanks for the feedback.

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Exactly !

That's why Phil is so famous for drilling more bleed holes in shock pistons. I also remember him saying that for a 2.0 shock, the 9 hole Fox piston was pretty good.

BustedKnucklefilms · Jan 10, 2019

Jake shock tunes a buggy per week at BKOR in Cullman. Half Day Rate is $400, full day is $800.
I had no idea how big of a difference it makes until I started test driving them in between tunes.
It is by far the best money you can spend on your rig.

With that being said, if your rig is sitting on the bumps stops, they will have to be moved, the suspension raised, or the bumps shortened. Up travel is key.
Give us a shout if we can help you out.

Eddyj · Jan 10, 2019

I called and talk to Jake about doing my **** box. He seems super easy to talk to and more than willing to help as long as you bring the cash.
Can't wait till he sees my crap wagon.

CHASMAN9 · Jan 10, 2019

BustedKnucklefilms said:
Jake shock tunes a buggy per week at BKOR in Cullman. Half Day Rate is $400, full day is $800.
I had no idea how big of a difference it makes until I started test driving them in between tunes.
It is by far the best money you can spend on your rig.

With that being said, if your rig is sitting on the bumps stops, they will have to be moved, the suspension raised, or the bumps shortened. Up travel is key.
Give us a shout if we can help you out.

I take it is plus parts? Just to clarify

ADMINISTRATOR

kmcminn · Jan 10, 2019

My pos was riding terrible. Now it's like a rzr. Best money I have spent. That's no bs. I think before anyone spends their money on shock tuning you need to talk about a sway bar.