Clayton H. Accident

[Poke]

I wanted to be upright for visibility. I looked but don't have pictures of the shoulder mounts. I know they are set within that 10 degree spec, Nate followed the Simpson guidelines on the mounting angles.

 

[Bebop]

Why would they mounted at an extreme angle? Headroom? The padding is actually adequate from the factory for most applications, but its not ideal. You have to realize that if you're not bouncing up and down in the seat you can deal with less padding.

Headroom and looks (low roof line) mostly.
In my experience, sparco sprint seats have a very intrusive front cushion that interferes with your legs when mounted slanted back. I liked the REV or GRID seats better because the cushions.

 

[kmcminn]

Headroom and looks (low roof line) mostly.
In my experience, sparco sprint seats have a very intrusive front cushion that interferes with your legs when mounted slanted back. I liked the REV or GRID seats better because the cushions.

If I ever build another I think I will go with Sparco.

 

[slravenel]

I'm not sure I have understanding for the need to have the seat laid back in a buggy, but I know most seem to be set up like that...whats the advantage?

Most of them are like that because...like it or not...there are a large pile of bouncers that are not built for safety, they are built to "look cool" and get youtube likes. There are lots of reasons that people give, some of them are valid...but look at most of them, they have a roofline so low that they have to put a mohawk in the middle of the cage so their heads fit in. They stare at the back of the motor or the underside of their severely raked roof, there are rarely firewalls or personal protection, they run open headers dumping right in front of their feet, etc etc. As you start to see some of these purpose built race bouncers you start to see some of them building more in line with safety and I think that trend will continue. They are getting taller, they are using better seats, they are building around a good suspension...I think its all going in a better direction - you have to remember that its a super new world of racing compared to the others that have been around for a long time and there is way more safety tech in other racing. There are quite a few bouncers that I wouldn't want to ride down a dirt road in, but are launching themselves up super steep hills in a timed race with the drivers eyes closed and his foot held to the floor until hes upside down 200ft down in the ditch.

 

[CHASMAN9]

For my .02, the greater >the seat mounting angle creates a greater reach leaning forward for visibility. This arch on your upper spine area cannot be good during an impact no matter how tight your belts are adjusted. I agree you need some seat angle, too little and you can compress your spine straight up and down, and too much and your hunching your shoulders away from the seat support.




ADMINISTRATOR

 

[Bebop]

For my .02, the greater >the seat mounting angle creates a greater reach leaning forward for visibility. This arch on your upper spine area cannot be good during an impact no matter how tight your belts are adjusted. I agree you need some seat angle, too little and you can compress your spine straight up and down, and too much and your hunching your shoulders away from the seat support.

ADMINISTRATOR

Pretty much

 

[Jeff Furrier]

I can't speak for everyone but in my case it came down to packaging. Granted, I'm not anywhere close to a 45° angle but the front end of the base is about 3.5" higher than the back. Otherwise, I would have needed to raise the entire seat 3.5" or move the whole thing back about 6". Neither were realistic options so laid back it was.

I dont really know if its a problem or not, but 3.5" higher in the front is for sure laid back but but doesnt seem extreme. Maybe when Im hearing "laid back" Im assming its full lazy-boy style and not just tilted. The Sparco seats have different angles, some are noticeably straight up which can give you leg room..some are more angled that would give more head room.

For my .02, the greater >the seat mounting angle creates a greater reach leaning forward for visibility. This arch on your upper spine area cannot be good during an impact no matter how tight your belts are adjusted. I agree you need some seat angle, too little and you can compress your spine straight up and down, and too much and your hunching your shoulders away from the seat support.

Its pretty common for your shoulders to go forward(drop/hunch whatever you want to call it) and cause your upper spine above the lumbar to bend under the force of a hard stop or big bump in a suspension seat. As you know the suspension in a suspension seat essentially lets you travel 4 or 5+ inches at times which make your belts loose at the worst possible moment. I think its the reason we see so many T12 injuries, its the vertebra right above your lumbar. The reason you like suspension seats is the same thing thing that usually creates the problem. That said, there have been 1000's of suspension seats used over decades without issue in recreational vehicles since the 70's, but they don't belong in cars that are knowingly going to be subject to high G loads.

I guess I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all. All the talk of testing body movement seems to refer to high speed crashes during desert racing factoring in front collision and side to side movement in a rollover, and not the hard hit from the bottom like casing on a jump or landing skid-plate-first on a rock from a 20 foot drop.
Makes me think of the science project in school trying to drop an egg from two stories up without it breaking. The only kid who passed that test hollowed out a Nerf football and put the egg inside, thus securing it against any movement that wasn't countered by foam. Reducing that foam layer to 1/2" would have shattered the lightweight egg on impact so I'm trying to understand how a thin layer of high density foam can save a 200 pound man's spine from a drop on a rock. Not saying it wouldn't by the way, just asking the question.

The foam being used in our seat pads in progressive, it soft at the start then firms up before you gut the bottom. Its the same principle as the Safer Barrier walls used in oval track racing, the point is to slow you down before you stop. The more you can slow down before you hit the better, but there are cases where it may not be enough to slow down the 200lb guy when he cases it on a rock. The amount of foam that can be used is obviously limited by space. The Egg/Nerf analogy is sound and makes the point for padding over suspension, what would have happened if the egg were suspended? It would bottom out and break or spring up and break. Think about it this way, what happens when you jump on a trampoline compared to a foam mattress? Which would you rather be sitting on in your car?

Poke, your set up look good. Do you have a pic of the lap and sub belt?


Spine pic with T12 noted-

 

[mna0121]

So the shoulder strap attachment points in this car are way too low?

 

[Poke]

Think about it this way, what happens when you jump on a trampoline compared to a foam mattress? Which would you rather be sitting on in your car?

Finally an analogy that makes sense to me.

 

[Poke]

Poke, your set up look good. Do you have a pic of the lap and sub belt?

The car was built in 60 days for KOH '18 so the build pictures were not a priority from day 10-day 60 lol!. Here is what I can find. Look close in some of them to see the mounting points.

 

[Jeff Furrier]

So the shoulder strap attachment points in this car are way too low?

Yes, too low, they should be going straight back and coming through the seat at the top of the guide. Also look how far his shoulders are outside the seat, if that's how he looks when tightened in the seat the seat is too narrow and wont hold him in on any side motion.

Anyone ever get arm pump when driving? Hows your grip on the wheel? Is your left leg tired from pushing your self back into the seat from the dead pedal? All common signs of not being restrained properly. If your belts are tight and you fit your seat properly you shouldn't move that much, when you do you usually are bracing yourself with the steering wheel which wipes out your arms. If your lap belt is tight, why are you sliding forward to the point you have to push yourself back in the seat? Rock Buggies seem to move a bunch more than a traditional off road car, but you should be able to set it up to where you're restrained. The amount of energy saved over a long race can be the difference between winning and losing, or avoiding an rock, ditch or whatever because your arms still work.

Poke your set up looks pretty good, I like the lap belt mounts further back so the belt is at better angle across your hips. Suspension seats have more limitations becasue there's usually not much room to move the belts in the slots. The seats in the Poke rig have larger openings than most.



Another suspension seat tip is that if the pad is removable like on a Mastercraft 3G, we like to put a hard bottom between the pad and the seat bottom. The hard bottom will spread the energy across your butt and thighs more evenly rather than all of the pressure going to the lowest point like a trampoline. This also will reduce the amount you will travel downward in the seat slightly. ABS, thin plywood, masonite or something similar works, not nearly as good as a proper race seat but its something you can do to make it better.

 

[rugger99]

It sucks that Clayton was hurt but the good outcome is the fact that we have all received good info and tech regarding the proper setup of harnesses / seats and other factors that can increase our safety while we pursue the sport we all enjoy.

 

[Elliott]

A little of the current topic but, I'm going to build a tube chassis s10 over the winter what style seat is better for straight line stuff in your opinion?

 

[jcw992]

Since this post is about my good friend clayton I thought I comment and say he is one tough mfer and is doin a lot better .. we went kayaking for about 10 miles sunday

 

[Eddyj]

Since this post is about my good friend clayton I thought I comment and say he is one tough mfer and is doin a lot better .. we went kayaking for about 10 miles sunday

That's awesome! Thanks for the update. Tell him a bunch of "nobodies" and a couple "has beens" we're asking about him.

 

[poolman]

Since this post is about my good friend clayton I thought I comment and say he is one tough mfer and is doin a lot better .. we went kayaking for about 10 miles sunday

Thats great news!!!!