Crap (Water in oil, 22R)

[TrikeKid]

Ok, I've got an 85 Pickup with a 22R, I know it needs a head gasket (pushing water in, coolant in the exhaust), would that cause water in the oil as well? Or did my engine do the chain into the water jacket act? It's got 251 thousand miles on it (I was told that it was rebuilt 70 thousand ago, which probably means someone cleaned the engine and called it a rebuild). Sooo uh, how screwed am I?

 

[NotMatt]

Definitely possible to get water/oil mixed with a bad head gasket... there's oil ports that go through that head gasket too, as well as water jackets.

You'd know if you had a timing chain problem... the motor I just put in my 4runner needs a timing chain (or at least a new tensioner)... it reminds me every time I start it by making a big racket up front, then settling down when the oil pressure builds up. If the timing chain had worn through the cover, you'd probably be hearing it all the time when the motor was running.

You'll have a plenty good view of the timing chain when you tear the head off... it the guides are broken or missing, then you know it's time for a timing chain too. IMO, if you can't verify the last time the timing chain was done, I would do it when you do the head gasket. You'll already be 3/4 of the way there with the head off.

 

[Lincolnlock]

Toyotas blow head gaskets all the time. About every 100k. It's an easy fix.

 

[zig80toy]

I gota question though. Once you get water in the oil like that arn't the bearings now toast? Say you go ahead and slap a new head gasket on it and change the oil. Dont you run the risk of just having a rod knock, say 5k miles later?... How long can you go? Is this even something to worry about? It would just suck to go through the trouble of putting a new head on just to have the motor rebuild a little while later...

 

[TrikeKid]

Yeah, there's no noise other than the usual belt noise and the exhaust, I wouldn't be amazed in the least if this thing's never had a chain done, Most of this truck seems like fluids and maintinence stuff is from the factory.

 

[NotMatt]

I gota question though. Once you get water in the oil like that arn't the bearings now toast? Say you go ahead and slap a new head gasket on it and change the oil. Dont you run the risk of just having a rod knock, say 5k miles later?... How long can you go? Is this even something to worry about? It would just suck to go through the trouble of putting a new head on just to have the motor rebuild a little while later...

Depends on how long you run it with water in the oil... and of course, anything's possible... who's to say that 5k down the road you develop a rod knock for some other reason that would've cropped up even if you hadn't had water in the oil.

If it runs good now other than the head gasket, don't drive it anymore, take it apart and do the head gasket, check the head to make sure it's still flat, and while you've got it apart do the timing chain too.

If you're made of money, you could get a re-man motor and drop it in and save yourself the "what-ifs" down the road I guess. Just depends on what kind of budget you're on and how long you can have the rig down, gotta make that call. If the motor has lots of miles and I could possibly drive something else and swing the money, I'd go reman (or rebuild it myself).

 

[TrikeKid]

Yeah, I'm not driving it currently other than moving it in and out of the shop, I'm going to go ahead and do a head gasket, if I develop problems after then I'll go reman or rebuild.

 

[zig80toy]

I hope everything works out for ya. I was not trying to scare you with my comments regarding a rod knock. that was just an example anyways...
As far as doing the head gasket; Like Matt said, it is important to make sure the head surface is nice and flat. I would take it to a machine shop and have them mill it so you know it is going to be perfect. It is going to cost a bit more but this will give you piece of mind knowing its "right".

 

[TrikeKid]

I'll get a straight edge and check it myself before I go having it milled, if it's within spec I'm running it the way it is. Anyone got a prefered gasket that may do better than another?

 

[Lamar]

Dear TrikeKid;
I wouldn't worry too much about damaging the rotating assembly bearings (mains, rods, etc) with a 22 series engine. Those little terrors are just T-U-F-F!! You will need to pratically shoot one through the engine block with a .44 Mag just to stop it. You'd be suprised at how tough that little motor really is, my friend. Pull the head off, replace the gasket, check the vlavetrain for wear and if e'things is still within tolerances, torque it all back down and wheel the pizz out of it for another 50K miles or so.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[crash2]

Ok, I've got an 85 Pickup with a 22R, I know it needs a head gasket (pushing water in, coolant in the exhaust), would that cause water in the oil as well? Or did my engine do the chain into the water jacket act? It's got 251 thousand miles on it (I was told that it was rebuilt 70 thousand ago, which probably means someone cleaned the engine and called it a rebuild). Sooo uh, how screwed am I?

You either have a blown head gasket/cracked head/pitted head around water jackets or a warped head..

But there is also a possablity of a broken timing chain guide with a hole rubbed thru the timing cover (when you pull the valve cover make sure the plastic guides are not broken)

 

[TrikeKid]

I don't think it's a timing chain issue, unless it's REALLY gone, cause there's no noise grinding noises or anything that sounds like the motor eating itself.
I did this vid to record what she sounds like, couldn't find my mp3 player to record so I did a ricer tach vid.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1107450679&n=2

 

[wazz]

Unless its for myself, I quit doing oil/water mixed head jobs on the Toyota 22's thru the shop, it seems to never fail for them to have 0 PSI of oil pressure hot at idle after that kind of job and typically some pretty nasty knocks on cold fire up's.
my .02



Lamar your a lucky guy, you seem to have considerably better luck with the 22's then I have had it sounds like.

For as much as I have heard people talk that engine up I sure have seen just a ton of 22 fatalities, (5 of them have been bottom end engine failures of my own stuff) of the 5 only 1 ever had water in it.

Good to hear one of us is having some luck with them things, I finaly gave up on um :surrender:

edit:
TrikeKid : confirming the TC cover leak is easy if you have a radiater PSI checker pull the valve cover pump it up and watch it spray, most of the time you can just see the big grove it has wore into the cover if you know what your looking for.

 

[TrikeKid]

Well, it seems that it hasn't been like this for long, my dad checked it saturday morning before we moved it, he says there wasn't any water in the oil then. It's been run all of 4-5 min since then.

 

[Lamar]

Dear wazz;
I've had quite a few rigs with the Toy 22 series engine and I have never suffered a catastrophic failure from one (yet). I flog my junk mercilessly and they seem to hold up amazingly well. One of the major problems that they have is when they do blow a head gasket, the head/block warps practically immediately, so people square the heads and deck the block to get everything to mate up properly again. The problem arises in that after this has been accomplished, the cylinder pressure has increased slightly, and upon fuel/air detontation, this slight increase REALLY rises, to the point of allowing too much of the burning gases to blowby the piston rings and into the crankcase. After just a short while, this increased pressure tends to wear lower end parts at an appalling rate of speed, hence the very low top end oil pressure at idle after the engine has been running for a while and the engine is at operating temp. The knocking at cold startup can also be attributed to increased bottom end wear too from the increased cylinder pressures.

The solution is to use a thicker head gasket after the head has been squared. This will lower the cylinder pressure to a point where the oiling system does not become overwhelmed and the engine will continue to function normally.

Of all the Toyota engines, I like the F series the best, followed by the 22 series.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[wazz]

Dear wazz;
I've had quite a few rigs with the Toy 22 series engine and I have never suffered a catastrophic failure from one (yet). I flog my junk mercilessly and they seem to hold up amazingly well. One of the major problems that they have is when they do blow a head gasket, the head/block warps practically immediately, so people square the heads and deck the block to get everything to mate up properly again. The problem arises in that after this has been accomplished, the cylinder pressure has increased slightly, and upon fuel/air detontation, this slight increase REALLY rises, to the point of allowing too much of the burning gases to blowby the piston rings and into the crankcase. After just a short while, this increased pressure tends to wear lower end parts at an appalling rate of speed, hence the very low top end oil pressure at idle after the engine has been running for a while and the engine is at operating temp. The knocking at cold startup can also be attributed to increased bottom end wear too from the increased cylinder pressures.

The solution is to use a thicker head gasket after the head has been squared. This will lower the cylinder pressure to a point where the oiling system does not become overwhelmed and the engine will continue to function normally.

Of all the Toyota engines, I like the F series the best, followed by the 22 series.
Your friend;
LAMAR

LAMAR
I can agree with that situation it make since.
Far as I know the parts stores dont seem to offer me a thicker HG to work with and honestly I never really thought to look around for one.

1 I killed in the snow getting it too hot for too long, (running it just under the red mark for a while),
It ended up with blowby that would kill a new air filter in no time.

1 I think was just a crap rebuild from an auto parts store, spun rod bearing.

The HG 1 with water in the oil just shut off one day and wouldnt turn over by hand so IM guessing another spun rod bearing.

The final straw that broke 22 back was the one that was working perfectly for a good year in my 83 (good OP never any weird knocks), then I all I did was change the oil with a (synthetic blend) and it drove 4 or 5 miles on the way to town, and spun a rod bearing out of no where.

1 had so much play in the thrust the crank literaly moved back and forth 3/4" it was a weee bit noisey:haha:

Even though changin 22 engines dosent take all that long it got a little old for me.:;

 

[Lamar]

Dear wazz;
Yes, if you take care of a 22 series motor it will take care of you for a very long time, my friend. It just needs a little preventive maintenance every now and again to keep it smiling. Funny, I've always been thought as a Toyota expert UNTIL I bought my 1990 Wrangler YJ and I became a member of that *other* board because I had a couple of tech questions about it that I wanted answers to (no manuals on Jeeps in here in Bolivia). Well, I never did my answers and I figured things out for myself, and I just sort of stayed and hung out there until I became known as an old-school Jeep guru. Go figure... I am actually wayyyy more knowledgeable on Gen I Broncos and older Toy products than on Jeeps, but then I sort of became a *specialist* in leafspring suspensions (I guess because I hand bent and hand wrapped the current leafpacks on my YJ) and carburetors, mostly because the crowd over there was younger and nobody had a lot of experience with the classical fuel mixers. If anybody has any questions about Toy products, especially the earlier series, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I am able to do to help out.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Nuzzy]

If anybody has any questions about Toy products, especially the earlier series, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I am able to do to help out.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Well, you're in the right place now... I think every toyota in the lower 48 is rapidly making it's way to Pacific Northwest :redneck:

 

[JPTHING]

Ok, I've got an 85 Pickup with a 22R, I know it needs a head gasket (pushing water in, coolant in the exhaust), would that cause water in the oil as well? Or did my engine do the chain into the water jacket act? It's got 251 thousand miles on it (I was told that it was rebuilt 70 thousand ago, which probably means someone cleaned the engine and called it a rebuild). Sooo uh, how screwed am I?

You bought a Toyota you have already been screwed!

 

[TB-F]

You either have a blown head gasket/cracked head/pitted head around water jackets or a warped head..

But there is also a possablity of a broken timing chain guide with a hole rubbed thru the timing cover (when you pull the valve cover make sure the plastic guides are not broken)

99.9 % of the time when people think they have a blown head gasket ot there 22r/re it's a bad timing cover. When the guides break the chain saws a lovely grove in to the port out of the water pump. How many miles are on the engine? Has the timing chain ever been replaced? If it was replaced are there more than 50,000 miles on it? 22r timing chains suck. period. replace with every 1000th oil change.:haha: