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I have a idea......

Opening Deer Flats Rd will provide the Trail Watch volunteers an opportunity. This opportunity is to see IF a TW volunteer catching a vehicle off road and reporting this violation to the proper authorities..........IF reporting this violation will actually allow prosecution of the offender.

So far....in all of time and place in WA, there has been only 1 confirmed effectiveness of this type of public enforcement. It was in Eastern WA and the circumstances were........well, they were perfect. This 1 example is the exception, definitely not the rule.

Pessimism aside......we WILL find out if a TW is effective for what it is designed to do. Which is Education, not necessarily Enforcement.
 
Opening Deer Flats Rd will provide the Trail Watch volunteers an opportunity. This opportunity is to see IF a TW volunteer catching a vehicle off road and reporting this violation to the proper authorities..........IF reporting this violation will actually allow prosecution of the offender.

So far....in all of time and place in WA, there has been only 1 confirmed effectiveness of this type of public enforcement. It was in Eastern WA and the circumstances were........well, they were perfect. This 1 example is the exception, definitely not the rule.

Pessimism aside......we WILL find out if a TW is effective for what it is designed to do. Which is Education, not necessarily Enforcement.

It's not intended to be enforcement and the answer is no TR catching someone off trail will not lead to procecution though a LEO catching someone could lead to procecution.
 
It's not intended to be enforcement and the answer is no TR catching someone off trail will not lead to prosecution though a LEO catching someone could lead to prosecution.



I know this.

You know this.

And after some time, we will all know this.:;

Know what I mean?

:D





And we haven't discussed if a scapegoat prosecution of an offender is what the ORV community wants.

We look at it one way, "they" look at it in another way. The story could be twisted many ways.

Do we even want to open this can of worms?
 
quick note regarding 'legality' of ORVs on Deer Flats road. There are two classifications DNR uses to sign its logging roads:
1) Motorized Vehciles limited to actively maintained public roads only
a) You can find these signs on most DNR logging roads.
2) Only Street Legal motorized vehciles allowed on public roads.
a) These signs can be found on P5000 and North Fork after they were closed

So Mark will be just fine with his buggy on deer flats road ;-). Its also why DNR can't just sit at the entrance to its logging roads and give tickets. If sign (1) is posted, its totally legal to use the road as long as you have NON EXPIRED tabs on a plated vehicle or ORV tabbed vehcile.
 
quick note regarding 'legality' of ORVs on Deer Flats road. There are two classifications DNR uses to sign its logging roads:
1) Motorized Vehciles limited to actively maintained public roads only
a) You can find these signs on most DNR logging roads.
2) Only Street Legal motorized vehciles allowed on public roads.
a) These signs can be found on P5000 and North Fork after they were closed

So Mark will be just fine with his buggy on deer flats road ;-). Its also why DNR can't just sit at the entrance to its logging roads and give tickets. If sign (1) is posted, its totally legal to use the road as long as you have NON EXPIRED tabs on a plated vehicle or ORV tabbed vehcile.

Basicly treated like the peter burns road...
 
So far....in all of time and place in WA, there has been only 1 confirmed effectiveness of this type of public enforcement. It was in Eastern WA and the circumstances were........well, they were perfect. This 1 example is the exception, definitely not the rule.

Pessimism aside......we WILL find out if a TW is effective for what it is designed to do. Which is Education, not necessarily Enforcement.


Actually Money, at least by what ORV Trail Watch has been involved in, we have 2 confirmed, 1 that we are sure they were talked to by the FS shortly after it happened (I guess you could call that a confirmed education), 1 that we are waiting on confirmation, and 2 that we are researching in WA. There are 4 that we have hit a dead end on and can't do anything with. We also have 1 we are waiting on confirmation, and one we are researching in Oregon.



It's not intended to be enforcement and the answer is no TR catching someone off trail will not lead to procecution though a LEO catching someone could lead to procecution.


I beg to differ Binder. Trail Watch catching someone off the trail CAN lead to prosecution. But there have to be certain things that are turned in. I haven't received positive breakdown from the DNR, so I'm not going to include them, but with the forest service they have to have 100% proof of the person in the vehicle is causing the damage/off the trail.. etc..etc. So in other words if you are going in an enforcement manor and taking pictures, one of the best pictures that helps is of who is in the drivers seat (which is not always easy to get), pics of the plate number, and pics of the damage being done. At that point they have 100% confirmation and they can go after them with the big guns - the forest service is pushing for criminal charges. BUT......if you can't get 100% proof, say you have pics of the vehicle causing the damage, a location, and a plate number - no pic of the driver. That doesn't mean all hope is lost. The FS can't do anything, but the Sheriff's department can. They only need 51%. The Sheriff's department won't go for a criminal charge, but they can issue a hefty citation. So that is what we have to work with.


Simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter how much educating I, or anyone else from ORVTW or any trail watch, does. No one knows about it. No one hears about it. I've lost track of how many people I have educated about wheeling and the trails. I could educate until I am blue in the face, and put up a post on every single incident, and I might get a response or two. But someone puts up one post of someone spinning donuts in the mud and all of the sudden 200 people are concerned about what is going on. Part of those 200 people are skeptical and pessimistic, another part supportive and encouraging, a smaller part aren't sure what to think, sprinkle in a few who just want to hear their voice and a few that don't have a clue. So much of what we do isn't seen, which is a huge part of the prominent skepticism and pessimism, and because of it those people won't even give us a chance.


Yes it is true that when ORV Trail Watch was first started it was more geared toward reporting/enforcing. But over the last 15 months that has changed to educated when possible, report when necessary. The decision on which is needed is left to the members who witness the incident.

Simply enough - in trying to educate someone you will get one of a couple of responses 1) they will listen and actually do what you are educating them to do 2) they will listen to what you have to say and then still do as they please 3) they will tell you in a not so nice way how they feel about your "educating". And of course there is the fact that you may not even get a chance to even try to educate the person.




But then again.......what do I know.........
 
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.....1 that we are waiting on confirmation, and 2 that we are researching in WA.

Can you clarify and elaborate on "confirmation" and "researching".......


BUT......if you can't get 100% proof, say you have pics of the vehicle causing the damage, a location, and a plate number - no pic of the driver. That doesn't mean all hope is lost. The FS can't do anything, but the Sheriff's department can. They only need 51%. The Sheriff's department won't go for a criminal charge, but they can issue a hefty citation. So that is what we have to work with.

......because (100% proof / divers pic aside) it seems like either you'd have the correct info, sufficient to prosecute, or not. As a minimum, you either get the license plate / vehicle and apparent damage in a picute.....or you don't.

What is left to "confirm" or "research"?:scratchhead:

I honestly want to know, as I will be a part of the TW for Reiter.:awesomework:
 
Ron, Kim, Zukkev and I caught kids red handed with two truckfulls of wood. They could have gotten tickets, but since they were still on DNR land, they let the kids offload the wood at the base and leave with a warning.

Even when there is good evidence of infraction, usually the policy of DNR is to send a stern letter to the offender. Their first goal is education, and enforcement only when necissary.

Then, there is another issue... People are getting fedup with closures. Since the tickets are low priced, people are making / using unauthorized trails on DNR land. Many I talk to find it worth it to go on kick ass trails, even if it means a ticket once or twice a year. I don't blame them either. If hiking was restricted to an area the size of Walker Valley, do you think hikers would go blaze their own path?

We need to think about the difference between asshats (those who go make ruts in the side of the road, go up creeks, streams) and fedup, but coinciencous wheelers (those who make sustainable trails). DNR knows and understands this difference, hence why you don't see enforcement on unauthorized trails, but with those who are obvious asshats causing considerable damage.
 
The trail watch we were refering to is Reiter Forest watch which is education only but lets hear some details of what you're talking about.:corn:
http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46598

+1 :awesomework:

This was specifically talked about at the Reiter training in Feb. Forest Watch is education and not enforcement.

luckily, most people don't want to act like asshats after being contacted by a Forest Watch volunteer and will cease their activities. But enforcement is not something anyone can do except Ron (or other LEOs) on DNR land.
 
Can you clarify and elaborate on "confirmation" and "researching".......




......because (100% proof / divers pic aside) it seems like either you'd have the correct info, sufficient to prosecute, or not. As a minimum, you either get the license plate / vehicle and apparent damage in a picute.....or you don't.

What is left to "confirm" or "research"?:scratchhead:

I honestly want to know, as I will be a part of the TW for Reiter.:awesomework:

I'm glad you asked Money. When we are waiting on a confirmation we are waiting to hear back from the FS or Sheriff's dept (usually FS) on if in fact the individuals did receive a citation and what it was for. Like with the government meadows situation we received confirmation from the FS LEO that the individuals were issued citations and they plead guilty to 5 of the 6 counts against them. :awesomework: With the guys that were spinning donuts in the meadow at Naches that I turned in, it took a while, but I was told they did receive citations.

When we are researching something it is usually something that someone has brought to us to turn in. Government meadows was an easy one - we had all the information we needed in the pictures. The guy spinning donuts at Naches - We didn't have a plate number. So I posted up if anyone knew the guy. Well I ended up getting phone calls and PM's on the guy. Someone that knew him came forward, and then I received a phone call from a guy who had actually worked on his truck and built his tow rig. So now I had a name I could put with the face and a description of his tow rig. I found out he had lost his job because of the pictures posted online and him lying to his boss. I was given information on possible locations of where he lived. I received a ton of information on the guy - but no one could tell me a license plate number. It wasn't until he just happened to pull out in front of my husband here in Richland during Cool Desert Nights that we finally had the vital piece of information. I worked with a FS Ranger the whole time, but it took a month or so of phone calls, time in the car and digging before we had the final necessary piece of information. Then it took over a year for me to find out that he had actually received a citation.

Another example of one that I am waiting on confirmation on is one that was brought to us from a craigslist ad. The ad gave me pictures of him mudding in a meadow at Naches - buried axle deep in the mud. We had his name, phone number, email address and an area that he lived in. But the pictures didn't show a clear show of his license plate. I did some checking around online and by email and was able to get more pictures of the truck but still no picture of the plate that you could read. Then the truck was seen at the moonshiners swap meet and we finally had a plate number. He was also seen loading the rig back on the trailer - so we ended up with the tow rigs plate number also. All information was turned in to the FS - the problem we have with these pictures though is that there isn't a clear picture of him driving the truck - so the FS will have a hard time getting their 100%. But they will do a little research of their own and if they still can't get it they will turn it over to the sheriff's department. So at this point on this one we are waiting to hear what the final action was and if he received a citation. We are waiting on confirmation.

So when we are researching something it is so we aren't "crying wolf" or making assumptions. We are digging through forums, google, myspace, facebook, youtube, emails, phone calls and what ever else we can get trying to find valid information on the person. Even if it means hopping in the car and cruising a neighborhood. Often times it is tips from other people that help us find out the needed information. Sometimes it takes working with the FS or another agency to find out some of the information. Once we have the information it is turned in to the officials it needs to be turned in to, and we wait for confirmation. Which can also take several phone calls or emails to get. But it is because of doing the research and having the information that we have been able to get the citations issued. I'm not going to turn something in that we may have bogus information on. We have to have a location to know who to turn it in to. We have a have at least a plate number. We have to have at least a picture of that rig doing that damage. Everything beyond that just makes it easier on the person writing the citation and could possible result in criminal charges being issued.


So I hope my long winded explanation answers your questions Money. Please feel free to ask if you have any more. I will be glad to answer them.
Heck, maybe this will help with some of the skepticism and pessimism about what we are doing.
 
No problem Money :cheer:



+1 :awesomework:

This was specifically talked about at the Reiter training in Feb. Forest Watch is education and not enforcement.

luckily, most people don't want to act like asshats after being contacted by a Forest Watch volunteer and will cease their activities. But enforcement is not something anyone can do except Ron (or other LEOs) on DNR land.

You are exactly right you should try to educate first. But I can tell you right now that you might make an impact through education maybe 1/2 of the time. Just be prepared for someone to tell you to f*ck off and drive away or play ignorant. My favorite one was "I couldn't tell the different between the mud or the bridge" after he watched 6 trucks cross the bridge the opposite direction and the guy in front of him crossed the bridge. The other 1/2 are the ones that just don't know any better. Usually someone new to wheeling or of a younger generation that has had influence from their friends.
You have a totally different crowd with the garbage dumpers and meth heads.

Enforcement is the same everywhere. I can not issue citations, like you said only Ron or other LEO's can write them for DNR land. But I turn in the information needed for that individual who does decide to act like an asshat to the proper authorities for the area.
 
Good point that the officer could have his own agenda but remember this would be in areas where non street legal vehicles are OK.

Well, if you are "hiring" said officer you treat him just like and employee, if his perfomance isnt up to your specification, get a different one.
 
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