KarlVP
Love that TOYOTA
So which is better?
Which is stronger?
Which should be used in steering applications for the daily driver?
Which is stronger?
Which should be used in steering applications for the daily driver?
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Lets have an opinionated arguement re. the pros of heims vs TRE's in steering systems
- Thread starter KarlVP
- Start date
I used TRE's for a couple reasons.
1st, TRE's are more expensive than heims, but I wanted them to last. Heims wear out and get sloppy much faster than TRE's. Not good on a DD or a rig that gets driven on the road a lot unless you like replacing heims all the time.
2nd, my steering design dictated that were I to use heims, at least one of them would be mounted in single shear. If I were going to use heims, I would come up with a way to mount all in double shear using the proper bolts and crush-lock nuts. Single shear bolts have no place in steering, IMO.
3rd, are Heims even "DOT Legal" for steering? I heard no, but I may be wrong.
Heims and TRE's both have their place, but if you're putting a lot of road miles on your rig, I think TRE's are the way to go. My setup is working GREAT so far and I have confidence that it is stout and not going to break on me or wear out prematurely.
1st, TRE's are more expensive than heims, but I wanted them to last. Heims wear out and get sloppy much faster than TRE's. Not good on a DD or a rig that gets driven on the road a lot unless you like replacing heims all the time.
2nd, my steering design dictated that were I to use heims, at least one of them would be mounted in single shear. If I were going to use heims, I would come up with a way to mount all in double shear using the proper bolts and crush-lock nuts. Single shear bolts have no place in steering, IMO.
3rd, are Heims even "DOT Legal" for steering? I heard no, but I may be wrong.
Heims and TRE's both have their place, but if you're putting a lot of road miles on your rig, I think TRE's are the way to go. My setup is working GREAT so far and I have confidence that it is stout and not going to break on me or wear out prematurely.
A quality teflon heim does not wear fast. The only people bashing heims are the ones that used the cheap economy heims and mount them in single shear in sloppy hand drilled oval holes
A TRE is a ball and race....it's basically a single shear heim. The taper is what holds it in.
Someone please find DOT standards on aftermarket steering.....sounds like internet myth to me
A TRE is a ball and race....it's basically a single shear heim. The taper is what holds it in.
Someone please find DOT standards on aftermarket steering.....sounds like internet myth to me
Ok, you have a good point. If you spend as much on Heims as you would spend on TRE's, you could get some high-zoot ones that won't wear out in 2 days, that's for sure.
One other reason I went with TRE's... I can get them anywhere. Chevy steering parts are in stock at almost every podunk parts house in the world. If you have trouble with a heim and don't have a spare, you may or may not be able to find something readily available to fix it.
Several companies sell aftermarket steering setups for various rigs using heims. I'm sure it all boils down to how much of a PITA some cop would want to be, because technically my "modified steering system" using chevy TRE's is probably "illegal" too...
One other reason I went with TRE's... I can get them anywhere. Chevy steering parts are in stock at almost every podunk parts house in the world. If you have trouble with a heim and don't have a spare, you may or may not be able to find something readily available to fix it.
Several companies sell aftermarket steering setups for various rigs using heims. I'm sure it all boils down to how much of a PITA some cop would want to be, because technically my "modified steering system" using chevy TRE's is probably "illegal" too...
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
I've ran both.
On my CJ, I redrilled both my pitman arm and my steering knuckles and ran heim (from Art Morrison) for both drag link and tie rods. The setup is a single shear system (much like the TRE) and never got loose. The Heims were very expensive, teflon, hi-quality, non-greasable.
I originally installed them because the CJ flexed so well, that the TRE were limited out, when it articulated and thought it would increase flex, increase steering strength, offer easier servicability, allow me to install heavier wall steering components, etc.
At that time, I had not seen anyone retro-fitting 1 ton TRE into CJs.
I never experienced any issues with a Double Shear -v- Single Shear concern. I used grade 8 hardware, with pinch nuts to prevent loosening, and never had the steering loosen.
I did wear out the Heim. Quality Heims would last between 1 to 2 years, depending on usage.
I tried one cheap set of heims, they last one trail run. Didn't fail, but got wickedly sloppy.
IIRC, the size was 5/8 X 5/8
My YJ, I redrilled the Dana 44 knuckle with a tapered bit to accept the 1 ton TRE.s and then shortened a Chevy tie rod to fit the narrower width. These TREs are still tight, and 5 or 6 years old.
I will not go back to Heims, unless I go full hydraulic steering.
My 2 cents.
Tony
On my CJ, I redrilled both my pitman arm and my steering knuckles and ran heim (from Art Morrison) for both drag link and tie rods. The setup is a single shear system (much like the TRE) and never got loose. The Heims were very expensive, teflon, hi-quality, non-greasable.
I originally installed them because the CJ flexed so well, that the TRE were limited out, when it articulated and thought it would increase flex, increase steering strength, offer easier servicability, allow me to install heavier wall steering components, etc.
At that time, I had not seen anyone retro-fitting 1 ton TRE into CJs.
I never experienced any issues with a Double Shear -v- Single Shear concern. I used grade 8 hardware, with pinch nuts to prevent loosening, and never had the steering loosen.
I did wear out the Heim. Quality Heims would last between 1 to 2 years, depending on usage.
I tried one cheap set of heims, they last one trail run. Didn't fail, but got wickedly sloppy.
IIRC, the size was 5/8 X 5/8
My YJ, I redrilled the Dana 44 knuckle with a tapered bit to accept the 1 ton TRE.s and then shortened a Chevy tie rod to fit the narrower width. These TREs are still tight, and 5 or 6 years old.
I will not go back to Heims, unless I go full hydraulic steering.
My 2 cents.
Tony
CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
Yes, but a heim doesn't have a nifty boot to keep the dirt out and the grease in. I won't believe for a minute that a properly greased TRE shouldn't last through more cycles than a heim full of dirt.briejer said:
CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
OTOH, I believe TRE can't take the pressure a heim can. Maybe it depends on the brand, I don't know, but I've seen grease squirt out of the damn things on a hard hit. Somebody chime in here, but isn't there some sort of spring loaded thingy in a TRE to keep it tight? That's fine as long as you're not putting excessive force on it.
Dear group;
What people call Heim joints are actually known as spherical bearings and they have been around in the aviation industry for over 3 decades. Spherical bearings are not especially strong, in fact the strongest spherical bearing in existence is only as strong as the single shear strength of the bolt going through the center of it. For everyday use spherical bearings tend to wear at a much faster rate than TREs simply because they were not designed to handle the types of loads being demanded of them. Since they don't have boots, they have no protection from the elements and they also have no way to maintain the lubricant. In other words, they need to be greased MUCH more frequently than TREs do. Go through a mud puddle? You better break out the ol' grease gun and give everything a quick shot or two, my friend. If you don't you'll find yourself changing Heims at a very quick rate. Even the angles which Heim joints are subjected to in a vehicle is more than they were designed to handle, therefore the lubricant surrounding the bearing is lost at a very rapid rate. IMVHO, for a daily driver, Toyota FJ-80 TREs are superior to Heim joints for cost, reliability and manitanence downtime.
Your friend;
LAMAR
What people call Heim joints are actually known as spherical bearings and they have been around in the aviation industry for over 3 decades. Spherical bearings are not especially strong, in fact the strongest spherical bearing in existence is only as strong as the single shear strength of the bolt going through the center of it. For everyday use spherical bearings tend to wear at a much faster rate than TREs simply because they were not designed to handle the types of loads being demanded of them. Since they don't have boots, they have no protection from the elements and they also have no way to maintain the lubricant. In other words, they need to be greased MUCH more frequently than TREs do. Go through a mud puddle? You better break out the ol' grease gun and give everything a quick shot or two, my friend. If you don't you'll find yourself changing Heims at a very quick rate. Even the angles which Heim joints are subjected to in a vehicle is more than they were designed to handle, therefore the lubricant surrounding the bearing is lost at a very rapid rate. IMVHO, for a daily driver, Toyota FJ-80 TREs are superior to Heim joints for cost, reliability and manitanence downtime.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Heims will last longer if you put a boot on it. :;
http://www.midwestcontrol.com/catdisplay_short.php?pg=230
http://www.midwestcontrol.com/catdisplay_short.php?pg=230
Cascade_Crawler
Well-Known Member
SeaRubi said:ream and moog baybee - ream and moog.
Thats what I just got doing :clappy:
PORTER
Well-Known Member
I run very high quality hiems(18 total) on my elitist buggy, and in 2 and a half years of wheeling in all conditions mine are still tight. It is IMO TREs would have failed by now with the loads put on them by Hydro Steering and the 40 inch tires I run. Both have their place in the world, but heims get my vote. BTW you get what you pay for, if you buy lesser quality heims as some people have found out.:;
Binder
Well-Known Member
From what I've been told "HEIM" is a brand name for what I know is a spherical rod end bearing. A tie rod end is just a specific application of a spherical rod end bearing. Big advantage to a tie rod end is the grease boot. Past that there is no real advantage. A HEIM on the other hand may be mounted in double shear. Big advantage to the HEIM.
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CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
Designed by Messerschmitt, stolen by the Allies, contracted to H.G Heim for duplication 
(Check out the google skillz :flipoff
(Check out the google skillz :flipoff
pbmcauliffe
Well-Known Member
Personally I feel each has their place, some systems work better with TRE, some better with a spherical end, we have built many systems of each, and some with both.
If done properly, either works, if done wrong, either sucks. I have seen both systems fail, usually from bad parts or bad install.
There are boots for spherical ends (as posted) but we have found that they are like shocks boots, and keep more crud in the ball and causing wear.
As far as double shear vs. single; in a perfect world a spherical joint should be in double shear, but can survive w/o. Somewhere there is the video of a blue buggy jumping and landing on the front end, the Crane Dana 60 arms sheared all six or eight of the studs (3 or 4 per side) off the knuckle, and the single shear heims didn't fail.
If done properly, either works, if done wrong, either sucks. I have seen both systems fail, usually from bad parts or bad install.
There are boots for spherical ends (as posted) but we have found that they are like shocks boots, and keep more crud in the ball and causing wear.
As far as double shear vs. single; in a perfect world a spherical joint should be in double shear, but can survive w/o. Somewhere there is the video of a blue buggy jumping and landing on the front end, the Crane Dana 60 arms sheared all six or eight of the studs (3 or 4 per side) off the knuckle, and the single shear heims didn't fail.
stompinjab1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2006
- Messages
- 384
The heim is stronger, and if its double sheer its way stronger and safer. Due to the heim case being captured and a TRE is just a ball and socket. If it wasn't stronger we would all be runnin TREs for links. The only down fall is, the life of the heim is short due to them not being greasable. If you ran a TRE with no grease it would wear out in a third of the time of a hime if that. But for a DD I would run TREs with a little grease they could last for ever.
IMO
IMO
sure you can mount a heim joint in double shear. but! how many people do you see with these high dollar heims mounted in anything but single sheer on the knuckle? seems like more of a fashion statement to me ...
:stirpot::stirpot::stirpot::stirpot:
:stirpot::stirpot::stirpot::stirpot:
Binder
Well-Known Member
I don't see this thread being about steering specifically. It's people who design their stuff poorly that give things like HEIMs a bad name. If your engineering is bad it's not going to last.
