Liberty Trail Closures Meeting 3/26/2016

[pokey]

You know what bothers me the most about this kind of ****? An employee of the Forest Service has nothing without us. The entirety of their income and retirement come from us. The clothes on their backs and the vehicles they drive come out of our asses. The sum of their lives is one big handout. We are their employers and they, our bitches.

What do we get for our money? We live in constant terror of another closure. We listen to TV and radio ads running 'round the clock that WE pay for from the FS telling us to "get outdoors" and "unplug" as the same agency is closing everything down claiming they don't have enough money. We live in fear of getting belted with a thousand dollars or more worth of vehicle citations just for crossing a gravel road in the middle of nowhere to connect with the trail on the other side. We live with constant threat that fits the Merriam Webster definition of Terror or Terrorist to a T, and WE are paying to make it happen.

The vast majority of us work hard to be able to afford a dirt bike, quad, rock buggy, horse, whatever. We are the movers and shakers of the American economy. We earn our livings the honest way and as righteous people, we don't deny or disparage our neighbor's rights and liberties to do so.

A Forest Service employee is employed by and claims to represent a government of the People, by the People and FOR THE PEOPLE. Taxpayer dollars that could have educated our children, paved our roads, maintained our infrastructure, etc are diverted to fund every aspect of a FS employee's being. Their incomes, retirements, they even get a Jeep to joyride around the trails with on our dime. Everything they have comes from us and what do they do with it?

They turn our 4X4 trails into roads with their gravel burritos and dump waste excavator track all over their own personal landfill with our money. They sit at key entryways to the trail system from the popular campgrounds and shower us with citations based on frivolous and unconstitutional vehicle laws with our money, from a citation book WE payed for. They impose season closures of OUR lands and enforce those with OUR money. They hold meetings like this one so they can roll their eyes around while we voice our opposition, then do what they were going to do anyway with our money.

They constantly take and oppress us with our own money. They act and conduct themselves as if they are in some way our superiors...

With

Our

****ing

Money.

They put the physical condition of wood and dirt ahead of the lives of Americans. They literally have come to feel they have that right.

Remember this while you are at work today 'O fellow NW Wheelers. Think of that guy you see sitting at the end of the freeway offramp on your commute home. The guy (or girl) wearing the same clothes he has for weeks and holding the cardboard sign asking for money or anything. You see that person? Okay, get this.

1. Your tax dollars did not put him there.
2. Giving this person money or anything is optional.
3. This person cannot write you a ticket for lack of tire coverage.
4 This person cannot legally decide to close the freeway off ramp entirely to all traffic or even for six months out of the year.

By definition panhandlers are more valuable people to society than Forest Service employees. They are a much higher class of person than a Forest Service employee by a wide margin.

Take these thoughts with you to this meeting. The Employees of the USFS have done nothing to earn our respect. Any esteem they may have earned beforehand from say public or military service of any kind they voluntarily forfeited when they betrayed everything America stands for by joining the fight against freedom and Liberty (no pun intended).

:awesomework:

Ahh, that felt good.

Great rant but missed the target. The true enemy is Congress and the greeies that control them with their money.

 

[crash2]

You need to go for the puppet masters--not the puppets :awesomework:

 

[Horus]

You need to go for the puppet masters--not the puppets :awesomework:

Respectfully disagree. A puppet master is no threat without a puppet to do his bidding. At the conclusion of WW2 we tried and hanged hundreds of German and Japanese soldiers for war crimes. Thousands if you count the number given life sentences too. We didn't just blame Hitler. Congress can ask for whatever they want but without their puppets nothing gets done.

I can't imagine being sick enough to think the Nazi medical experiment torture doctor is a great guy just doing his job and that the only bad person here at all is the one guy in his Eagle's Nest calling the shots.

The greenies in Congress and the ultra leftwing USFS employees are one and the same to me. They are all equally culpable in my view.

 

[nowires]

They are planning to close over 300 miles of road on the west side of the cascades this year. Do to funding and not able to maintain the roads to the level of road that it is rated. From the best that I can figure it is about 8 million dollars to keep them open. Or declassify the road. One of the problems that they had is that the engineer that was on staff wasn't certified to do the evaluation on the roads to declassify them. That has been solved. He is now working else ware.

If you want to save the trails, then get involved. You will give up a lot for very little return. You will give up time at work, sleep and not to mention the cost of driving to meetings. Your wheeler will be parked so that you can focus on what is going on. You don't have time to play.

Pokey is right. Bitching at the local rangers and staff does nothing. They are handed a budget and have to work with in it. In there budget they have $1766 a mile to maintain level 5 and 4 roads. Level 3 is $1419. Level 2 (trails) is $633. It cost about $200 a mile to evaluate the roads every year. Now before you flip on that, the $15 hr employee cost about $100 hour. Now when it comes to roads and natural disaster. They don't have funding to " fix" the problem before it happens. BUT there is money to fix roads that are washed out. different budget column. Different funding source. Roads get fixed by the "bitch-o-meter" the more people that bitch, the better chance it will get fixed. If 100 people bitch, good chance it will not get fixed. If 5000 people bitch. It will get fixed

In the old days the FS had road crews that maintained the roads. cost were low because they were employees of the government. Now they contract everything out and have to pay prevailing wage on jobs. So rather that paying a crew to do the work of around a mil a year, they pay 10 to 15 mil just in wages to do the same job.

Bottom line is they need funding. Get them funding and the closures will stop.

OK now rant on and tell me I am full of ****.

 

[srgould41]

I say let's hire some Nazi's. Or better yet elect Trump. However, be prepared for him to build a wall around the region then arrest you for complaining about it and then deport you to Canada.


I'm kidding about the Nazi part.

 

[crash2]

Respectfully disagree. A puppet master is no threat without a puppet to do his bidding. At the conclusion of WW2 we tried and hanged hundreds of German and Japanese soldiers for war crimes. Thousands if you count the number given life sentences too. We didn't just blame Hitler. Congress can ask for whatever they want but without their puppets nothing gets done.

I can't imagine being sick enough to think the Nazi medical experiment torture doctor is a great guy just doing his job and that the only bad person here at all is the one guy in his Eagle's Nest calling the shots.

The greenies in Congress and the ultra leftwing USFS employees are one and the same to me. They are all equally culpable in my view.

But how is that different than your job or my job? If we don't do what is expected of us we are gone. Ya gotta remember many of those folks are just there to feed there families and pay there own bills and have no "agenda" per say than making an income.

Still though mike if you want there policies changed you need to go farther up the food chain.

Sure many of us in this sport(and a few others) don't agree with what they do but the fact IMO still remains.

 

[Big Rick]

Here is a place to submit an electronic comment on the matter. Please feel free to do so.

https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput?Project=44149

 

[zukkev]

They are planning to close over 300 miles of road on the west side of the cascades this year. Do to funding and not able to maintain the roads to the level of road that it is rated. From the best that I can figure it is about 8 million dollars to keep them open. Or declassify the road. One of the problems that they had is that the engineer that was on staff wasn't certified to do the evaluation on the roads to declassify them. That has been solved. He is now working else ware.

If you want to save the trails, then get involved. You will give up a lot for very little return. You will give up time at work, sleep and not to mention the cost of driving to meetings. Your wheeler will be parked so that you can focus on what is going on. You don't have time to play.

Pokey is right. Bitching at the local rangers and staff does nothing. They are handed a budget and have to work with in it. In there budget they have $1766 a mile to maintain level 5 and 4 roads. Level 3 is $1419. Level 2 (trails) is $633. It cost about $200 a mile to evaluate the roads every year. Now before you flip on that, the $15 hr employee cost about $100 hour. Now when it comes to roads and natural disaster. They don't have funding to " fix" the problem before it happens. BUT there is money to fix roads that are washed out. different budget column. Different funding source. Roads get fixed by the "bitch-o-meter" the more people that bitch, the better chance it will get fixed. If 100 people bitch, good chance it will not get fixed. If 5000 people bitch. It will get fixed

In the old days the FS had road crews that maintained the roads. cost were low because they were employees of the government. Now they contract everything out and have to pay prevailing wage on jobs. So rather that paying a crew to do the work of around a mil a year, they pay 10 to 15 mil just in wages to do the same job.

Bottom line is they need funding. Get them funding and the closures will stop.

OK now rant on and tell me I am full of ****.

I see an easy solution...Hire the crew back, at around 1 million/yr...Put them to work, and save the 13+Million they are wasting on contracting...

 

[nowires]

I see an easy solution...Hire the crew back, at around 1 million/yr...Put them to work, and save the 13+Million they are wasting on contracting...

That is what I am working on. Should have been in the last meeting when I said that we need to fire from the top down.

 

[Dave W]

My first comment...


To the Project Team:

This e-mail is to address roads in this project. Following is a brief take on how system roads should be looked at.


Level 1 Roads- Many of these roads need more review as the provide connectivity in the system or do, in fact, have high recreational value. I would urge they be considered for management as trail in many cases.

Level 2 Roads- These roads can, and often do, constitute the backbone of any OHV trail network, and provide non-street legal vehicles access to other system trails, and recreational use for larger 4x4 vehicles.

Level 3 Roads- These should be mixed vehicle use to provide connectivity to all portions of a trail system, and are also key to larger vehicles being able to access trails.


The above referenced road types comprise the heart of an adequate OHV/4x4 system, The Liberty area has been a prime recreation area for OHV for many years, and is a destination for many OHV users for weekend outings. It should be important to consider these users in your process, as well as other affects this project may have aside from OHV that will be covered later.

Regards,

Dave Walters
Tri Cities Peak Putters
Land Use Coordinator
Kennewick, WA
509-734-8694

PNW4WDA Member
WOHVA Member
BlueRibbon Coalition M

 

[Horus]

But how is that different than your job or my job?

We don't **** on other people's lives with our work. You and I hold the esteem of being able to provide for ourselves without trampling the rights and liberties of others.

There are no slaves in America. We are all free to choose how we make a living. If someone chooses to make their living taking from others they should be held accountable by society for that choice.

Tweekers provide for themselves by stealing the contents of your home while you're at work or ripping the copper wire out of your walls. Are they not just folks just trying to provide for themselves and pay their bills too? What do we collectively think of them?

 

[zukkev]

We don't **** on other people's lives with our work. You and I hold the esteem of being able to provide for ourselves without trampling the rights and liberties of others.

There are no slaves in America. We are all free to choose how we make a living. If someone chooses to make their living taking from others they should be held accountable by society for that choice.

Tweekers provide for themselves by stealing the contents of your home while you're at work or ripping the copper wire out of your walls. Are they not just folks just trying to provide for themselves and pay their bills too? What do we collectively think of them?

They (tweekers) are not trying to provide anything except the means to get their next fix...They aren't providing anything, they are not paying bills with their thievery, well....one...to their supplier...

 

[Phantom 309]

Here's the map of what they plan to "decommission." I've talked to a couple of people that attended the earlier meetings but what they had to say just raised more questions than answers for me.

 

[boxboy]

Could these roads be converted to trails and let degrade to a trail standard and not a FS road standard?

 

[74nvrstuk]

Anybody going to Thursday night's meeting? 5-7pm in Cle Elum

We are hoping Liberty fire hall will be packed on Saturday. I live close by..it's small...

Hope to see you all there...we've fended off several road closures in our Valley in the past. Hopefully we can join forces and keep this proposal from being enacted.

They are reaching for reasons to close it besides money...they are pushing endangered species which makes it extremely hard for us (citizens ) to counter. Grizzly bears, steal head, and spotted owls. They've lined up three species saying this is their natural habitat quoting sources that they were bountiful a hundred years ago and want to restore these species in this area...

We need educated responses and counter proposals like reducing road status to trail status... proving that silt from the trails won't affect steal-head, I have proof that humans and grizzlies get along and no roads in Wyoming or CO have ever been closed for Grizz habitat...and they have the most Grizzlies in the lower 48. Spotted owl habitat is a joke and it's a proven joke that they don't need old growth forest or isolation from people...

Just discussed this with a NW4WD officer and USFS employee. The proposal is to somehow fix the BillyGoat road/trail and then close 20+ miles of nothing but spur roads with the longest being .7miles long.

more later...hope you can be there

 

[zukkev]

Keep on it 74nvrstuk!!! Thank you for the update after chatting with your source/contact...

 

[Phantom 309]

Anybody going to Thursday night's meeting? 5-7pm in Cle Elum

We are hoping Liberty fire hall will be packed on Saturday. I live close by..it's small...

I'll be there on Saturday.

 

[netcoyote]

New member here but this thread really caught my attention. I recently became aware of this FS closure activity through meetings with Mt Baker FS people on the 410 corridor roads. They are looking at permanently closing access to over half the roads over here. This is not limited to a single area and not a single NF. It's affecting road closure in the whole state and probably going on in many states with Federal land.

This is a MASSIVE land grab and is a systematic process to limit access to large tracts of land owned by citizens. When there was large scale logging operations going on, many of these roads were built with taxpayer funds although the claim then was that the timber companies were footing the bill. Organizations like the Sierra Club blew the lid off of that story years ago. Taxpayers paid dearly for those roads to be built and now we are being told they have to be shut down, again, at great expense to the taxpayers.

Reading some of the rationalization put out by the FS is enough to drive anyone crazy. It's thinly veiled to be for "wildlife habitat" with a smattering of "budget constraints" thrown in. Any feedback will only be considered if it relates to those criteria. In other words, just wanting to access the roads for recreation is not a valid reason.

For the average weekend warrior, fighting this is extremely difficult. We are up against bureaucrats who have nothing to do all day but put together plans to limit access for the people who pay their wages. Fortunately, for once in my life, I'm retired and I do have time to devote to a cause that is close to me. I've spent a lifetime enjoying the access to public land and raised my kids and now grand kids to enjoy it as well. I won't be sitting back and just accepting this without a fight. I volunteer a lot of time working on trail repair and will gladly take on a bigger challenge to add to my new "job".

It's going to take a lot of work to take this on and we have got to act fast and get involved. This is a BIG FREAKING DEAL folks and once this land is gone, it will most likely never be back in our lifetime.

Act NOW!

 

[BUILTnotBOT]

Main thought i took from today's meeting in Cle Elum was IF this goes through relocating and reestablishing trails WILL be part of the project.

BUT the time frame for this work is entirely dependent on the contractors pace and time frame throughout the project. The contractor has UP TO 5 YEARS with an option of an extension to complete their work, at their own pace.... throughout this time, specific trails will be closed until completion of work. Once again, up to and possibly extending past 5 years.


The major portions considering to be relocated are evolved trails that are not originally part of the ORIGINAL established trail.... that said there're still portions of 4w332 and 339 that are parts of the ORIGINAL trail that are also going to be decommissioned

Personally, we need to retain everything we can. The allotted contractor time frame is what errks me about the whole thing.

 

[74nvrstuk]

x2 what builtnotbot and netcoyote said...

It's not a big road closure they are trying to put thru "here" anyway. But, every road that's closed adds up... I've been in K-Valley long enough to watch almost all of our wheeling roads closed in the winter and many others are permenant.

Here's what I got from tonight...
I went to the mtg tonight in Cle Elum.

It's an open house format where you go around to different tables that are set up in the perimeter...there's not a chair in the house, they don't want you to sit. This is a format where YOU have to ask questions to all the specialists.

If you haven't prepared there isn't much to do except listen to other guys ask questions. Playing devils advocate, they set this up well to avoid confrontation, reducing potential of group or individuals getting out of hand, and betting that the average Joe doesn't do much research and therefore doesn't know what questions to ask...these guys have done this before...

Synopsis: They are closing a bunch of short spur roads and not closing any trails that are currently open. The main 339 trail that forks off into about 4 trails that all meet at the top will be re-routed into one trail that will be moved to the side of the existing trail.

What I found out is if we can group together and all decide on several short spur roads that we ALL want to prioritize and save we have a much better chance of at least saving those couple.

Look at the maps of the Liberty area that are posted on the USFS map in the EIS and pic a few spur roads as a start.

WHY is the contractor getting such a LONG time to build these roads? This is a must question for Sat. Many others too but I get up when it's dark so I hope to type up a few more comments tomorrow.