ORV park investors needed

[Gibby1]

Along the lines of 'just a thought', but it seems that 'private property' ORV areas are the prevelant areas back east. If'n you could track down some of these, and talk to the owners..... you might find out how they set them up with regards to investors, original property owners, etc... Wouldn't hurt to have the insights, so that we don't fall into the same pitfalls.

You are absolutely correct. This is why I need to get 4 or 5 other people involved so that we can do all the research. It's just too much for one person especially with my work schedule. Best way to learn how to do something is find someone else who's already done it and copy what they've done! Anyone else ever listen to Tony Robbins??

 

[albino 94LTD]

Dale, from a financing perspective, I'm not finding anyone that will do a 501c3 but there may be a large bank that would. We can find some lenders that will finance private parties/consortiums. I'm still looking.

 

[Gibby1]

I'm betting that private investors are more likely to be key. However, I know that in the case of our club, we are incorporated and we are a non-profit be we didn't file for our tax free status.

The advantage to a non-profit corp is that you're more likely to get volunteers and donations vs a for profit corp. Those donations and volunteers could be the difference between making it and breaking it...

Thanks for looking!

 

[Erik D_lux]

Maybe some of this will help you. I looked at buying some land. Bottom line was that you need a ton of it. Around here that is going to be in the millions and also I personally am unsure that the revenue will be there.

These are all replied emails so you will have to read each one from the bottom up. Good luck

 

[Erik D_lux]

Erik, feel free to call me any time. I tried to
answer as best I could but unfortunately I don't have
all the answers. I'm new at the park and have not
been around since the begining. Hope I was of some
help

-BJ
501-625-3600


" 1. Do you know if there is any grant money out there
> for something like an
> off road park or if any businesses would be
> interested in supporting
> something like this?"

The BLM has opened several "government" operated OHV
areas most of which are in California. I'm sure this
was the hard work of a few individuals or clubs.
Our park has a large group of individual as well as
corporate investors (Superlift Suspensions obviously)
who purchased the land and invested heavily to make it
all work.

"2. Can you give me details on what you do for
> insurance? In order for you to ride in our park you
sign a waiver of liability. "

"3. What kind of zoning is needed or what land can
> you use for an off-road
> park?

This depends on local regulations. I couldn't say for
sure.
> 4. Ever have any troubles with the EPA
> (environmental protection agency)?

Not yet.

> I have some money saved and if I have zero help, I
> could do something small
> like 10 acres, which is not much but its something.
> My main concerns would
> be that I buy a piece of land, get a business
> license and then the EPA or
> whomever would shut me down since they don’t like
> the idea. People up here
> are eco-Nazis to the greatest extreme.
>
> Thanks for all the help. I know it is a lot of work
> answering all the
> questions but I know I would appreciate it and so
> would many others if I can
> get this going.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Eric; Let me try to answer your questions, 1; There is no grant money for any type of bussiness like this that is for profit. only non profit groups can get grants. 2; Insurance is a big issue from what I learned talking to different parks around the country is that insurance is to expensive for most parks to afford upwards of 30,000.00- 40,000.00 a year as for me I found a company that insures us with a 2,000,000 dollar liability policy for around 10,000.00 a year, and anyone who enters the park signs a release of liability waiver. 3; Zoning well that depends on the county you are working with, they are all different around here the county I have delt with they were interested in developing some business in the area I was wanting to open the park so they were all for it. We have what is called a special use permit on the land, we had to go through all the bull with the planning department and the commishiners to get the approval but that was just a formality. So all said it is up to the county your looking to do this in. Talk to the people in the know ahead of time and see what they can tell you. 4; never had any dealings with the EPA dont think they know we exist and would like to keep it that way. I hope I answered your questions if I can be of further help dont hesitate to call or e-mail.Ã' Carl Miron

 

[Erik D_lux]

> From: <[email protected]>
> To: "Erik D" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Off road park
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:59:39 -0500
>
> Mr. Erik Dye
>
> Erik,
>
> We have had so many requests for this type of help that you wouldn't
believe
> it! We spent a great deal of our time and quite a bit of our hard-earned
> money to obtain the knowledge that we now possess regarding the issues
> involving an off-road park. Since we invested all of this money and time
to
> obtain this information and we need to work to support our families, we
have
> established a consulting service to work with others interested in
> developing offroad parks.
>
> Based on what you have briefly told us, I can tell you that our consulting
> services would be a big help to you in establishing your park. For
> instance, I'll throw out a free recommendation: leasing the land instead
of
> buying it is something that you should seriously consider. You'll be able
> to gain access to a lot more land with the same amount of money. We
> explored this option for our park and are well versed in how to proceed:
> where to look, who to contact, etc. There are some downsides to leasing
> which need to be managed so you're not sorry in 3 to 4 years after the
park
> is a success, but, upfront it will save you thousands of dollars and it
make
> it easier to walk away if the greenies do manage to get you shut down.
>
> We work off of a minimum retainer of $2,500.00, which is good for a 12
month
> period, and charge $120.00 an hour for our consulting work against the
> retainer. Once the retainer is used, we then bill weekly. We will travel
> at an agreed upon rate in the future if site inspection becomes necessary
> (we usually like to get out and see what we're talking about and so we
> travel pretty cheaply for our clients). The many different elements which
> we will be able to assist you with are:
>
> Park Location - We'll help you to pick the best location of your
> park based upon all of the factors such as topography,
> support structure, EPA concerns, etc.
Its
> a lot more important than most people think (and as we have
> found out, you have to manage every
aspect
> of it or you'll have trouble), and there are a lot more variables to
> consider than what the average person
> realizes. You also need to weigh some factors against each other
> such as location vs. topography.
>
> Trail Development - We can assist you in laying out the trails and
> desiging them. We can also help with the actual trail
> construction. There are a number of
> ways to create trails and having our experience on your side will
> shorten the time frame, allow you to
> make faster and better decisions, and ultimately create your trail
> system as economically as possible.
>
> Obtacle Creation - We have at our disposal the first person to
> build and design man- made obstacles. This person also is
> the most experienced at developing
and
> designing rock crawling courses! Up until this past year he did all
> of the course design for UROC.
>
> Land Structure - We'll help you to determine if buying or
leasing
> is the best way to proceed, and will help you with
> structuring the agreements to protect
> your long-term interest.
>
> Web Site Development - We can actually do the design work or
just
> give you creative ideas for your web site. We can
> also help you to obtain top search
> engine rankings.
>
> Logo Creation - Logo development is important for positioning
the
> park and will be very important to future revenue from
> accessory item sales.
>
> Risk Management - We are the only offroad park to receive a new
> insurance policy on our activities in the past two years in
> the USA. There are a couple of offroad
> parks that have had long standing policies, but no new park or a park
> whose policy was dropped has been able to
> get coverage in the past two years with the exception of ours.
> How do we know this? They have all
> contacted us and asked us how we did it! The vast majority of offroad
> park operators do not presently have
> insurance. We know this because we contacted them when we were
> setting our park up. In this sue happy
day
> and age this is a must for an offroad park operator! We cannot
> guarantee that we'll be able to get you
> insurance coverage, but your chances of obtaining it with our
> help is greatly increased. We also have
> worked out ways to further protect you from risk. Of course, all risk
> methods will need to be reviewed and
> approved by an attorney familiar with your state's laws.
>
> Marketing - We will help you to market your park and get the
> word out! KY Outback Adventure Park has already been
> the featured park in articles which
> appeared in two of the largest offroad publications in the USA. We
> can help your park receive the same type
of
> publicity. We can also guide you on internet marketing
> methods. We also can assist with the
> development of park literature such as brochures, fliers, business
> cards, etc.
>
> Operations - We can make recommendations on fee structures,
> payment acceptance methods, etc. Different types of
> services to offer: camping, showers,
> grocery items, etc.
>
>
> Erik, we can help you in every step of the way in getting your offroad
park
> off of the ground. This is a brand new industry and the only people that
> know and understand all of the problems are current park operators. Even
> some of them are taking huge risks, which we feel are just to large to
> justify. Ther

 

[Erik D_lux]

Erik,

I'm not going to get in some long drawn out sales pitch, but I would liuke
to offer you some more free advice. If you are that tight on cash, you
should either quit now (over 80% of business failures are due to
under-capitalization) or find other people with the funds to help with the
project (Finding potential investors and selling the opportunity to them is
something that we could help you out with). A lack of money is already
causing you think about a 10 acre off-road park and from our studies we've
done show that a park of that size will not bring people back time after
time. Once they've been over it a few times, they'll move on. Unless it is
like a motocross track. With a true off-road park where you are attempting
to attract people with full-size rigs and maybe quads, you need enough space
to have a variety of trails and obstacles with the opportunity of opening up
a couple of new trails/obstacles every year.

The other thing I'll tell you, is our fee is cheap and the least expensive
option of paying us or learning the information yourself. We would save you
thousands and thousands of dollars that you'll wind up spending without our
help.

Good luck with your efforts.

Sincerely,

Al
KY Outback Adventure Park


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik D" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Off road park


> Thanks a lot for your help. I dont doubt it at all that it has been a
long
> hard road to get all this information so I can respect that.
Unfortunately
> I dont have much to spare as all the money I do have wont even buy me much
> as is. I really appreciate your help though.
>
> Erik
>
>

 

[Erik D_lux]

It's all in the wording. Members of a group or club cannot sue the group or club legally. It would be like sueing yourself if that makes sense.

Most of our customers are "Yearly Members" and our "day users" are about to become "day members".

I honestly doubt anyone would cover you as far as insurance goes. I'd check into how a Rodeo handles insurance. That is a really dangerous sport that will let almost anyone play with a bull. I'd be willing to bet they handle it similar to the way we do.

-BJ

Erik D <[email protected]> wrote:

BJ, Thanks for the help.

One more question if I could. Have you guys ever had any problems with
running your insurance like that? Anybody ever get hurt and want to sue?

Thanks
Erik

 

[Erik D_lux]

Erik,

You will just need to contact the cities and or the counties in which
you think you might want to conduct business in to find out what they
will allow.

Jodi
Business Referral Center

>>> "Erik D" <[email protected]> 12/7/2005 5:40:06 AM >>>
Jodi,

Thanks for the quick reply. I think I have the business name and
structure
idea down. I have used the wizard also and I don't think its answering
my
question or giving me anybody besides this email for you. All the
referrals
from the wizard refer me back to your email.

I don't know what city/area I would be conducting business in because I

don't know what city/area would allow this type of business and don't
know
how or who to contact to figure it out. Finding the land I need is the

first step to take because if I cant afford it, find proper zoning or
am
unable to start this business type for environmental reasons or
whatever,
then getting a business name and structure are pointless.

All I need is to be able to figure out where I can locate my business
and I
have no doubt I can get the ball rolling on the rest. I hope you can
help
lead me in the right direction.

Thanks again
Erik Dye


From: "BRC SOS" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Licencing and permits
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:51:33 -0800

Erik,

If you will be conducting business in Oregon under a name other than
your own true legal first and last name no abbreviations you will need
to file it with our office. The correct form can be found on our
website
at www.filinginoregon.com listed under forms and fees, Business
Registry
forms. You will need to know the business structure of your business
before you can select the correct form. This information can be found
in
the Oregon Business Guide on our website.

The Business Wizard is a very helpful tool for starting a business in
Oregon. You will answer a few brief questions and are provided with a
customized referral list of: Governmental Licensing Contacts,
Registration Information Contacts, Regulatory Contacts, Organization
Contacts, City Contacts and County Contacts. The list contains phone
numbers for key agency contacts and Internet links to appropriate
forms,
publications and information about requirements for doing business in
Oregon.


Jodi
Business Referral Center

>>> "Erik D" <[email protected]> 12/6/2005 3:02:38 AM >>>
Hello. I am looking for information on licencing and permits needed
to

start my business. I would like to start an off road park where you
could
take motorcycles, ATVs and 4x4's. I am really lost on what type of
land I
would need for this and also the licencing and permits.

Any direction on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time
Erik Dye

 

[Erik D_lux]

Erik

Your state laws are unknown to me, but I think this would be a special
use which would not fall under any existing zoning. Check out the rural
townships/counties zoning laws to find one which might be rural and
permissive enough for this to work. You will need a land planner
consultant and probably an attorney later when you take concrete steps
toward the permits. Noise regulations in many areas would put a stop to
what you want to do unless the land area is large--probably 160 acres or
more.

Here in Michigan you would not need a business license, but the zoning
and noise hurdles would be tough to get over.

Karl Hauser

On 7 Dec 2005 13:56:02 -0000 [email protected] writes:
> Dear Karl Hauser,
>
> Email Counseling request number #406820 has been assigned to you.
> This request is from Erik Dye, 97006, (Beaverton, OR).
>
> The question/concern which Erik Dye entered was:
>
> Hello. I am looking for information on licencing and permits needed
> to
>
> start my business. I would like to start an off road park where you
> could
> take motorcycles, ATVs and 4x4s. I am really lost on what type of
> land I
> would need for this and also the licencing and permits.
>
> Any direction on this would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks for your time
> Erik Dye
>
> Additional client information that may be helpful includes:
>
> How client heard about SCORE: Small Business Administration
> Client is a: Start-up
> Clients business type: Other
>
> To respond to this request, simply reply to this email message.
>
> When responding to an Email Counseling Assignment email, it is
> important that the subject line of the message not be changed.
>
> Thank you for your service as an email counselor.
>
> SCORE Email Counseling System
>

 

[Gibby1]

Eric, it doesn't have to be in themillions. I just bought 20 acres for $350k and For example
1: $899,000
Beautiful 80+/- acre parcel, olympic views as well as territorial views. Great investment for possible subdivision or create your very own ranch. Good soil for perking, mostly high and dry. Buyer to verify all information. Sold only w/parcel #0318354021 mls #26082652 purchaser agrees to cooperate w/seller 1031 exchange process
2: $220,000
23.10 acres of timberland with the right mix of open grassy spaces and timber. Paved access, power and phone in the street. Water would be by drilling a well and sewer would be by installing a septic system. Great horse property. Territorial views of the vail hills.
3: $199,500 This lot has SEVERAL 20 acre lots side be side that are available.
This is one of the nicest 20's in the area. Corner 20 acre lot on alder cutoff & alder mashell connection rd e. Good possibility to split into 10's, buyer to verify. Possible mountain view. Selectively logged recently & throughout last 10 -15 years. Fringe trees remain to protect privacy. Designated forest land approx 1986. Vacant land financing available with farm credit services. Sign will be up by 7/25/06. Ok to drive by.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Good luck

IMO a really sucessful park will have to be atleast 50 acres, and that will be tight. Some of the parks back east are in the range of 850 acres.

 

[Gibby1]

Good luck

IMO a really sucessful park will have to be atleast 50 acres, and that will be tight. Some of the parks back east are in the range of 850 acres.

Eric, you've got some really great info and leads there!

What I am envisioning is NOT so much of an ORV park with miles of trails as I am and event and obstacle based park. It would contain a rock crawl, mud bogs, obstacle course etc, very similar to what we've been working towards with the Webfooters at Cranberry Lake. You could go someplace like that several times per year and have a blast. It could host PNW racing, rock crawl events, mud bog events and tuff truck challlenges. It could be open for day use on weekend, made available for private club events. This could fit easily on under 50 acres. If we had 50 acres we could include camping but I think a minimum size of 20 acres could actually work. If the county hadn't got involved, I'd have finished one of these already...

 

[Erik D_lux]

The only thing I could see about a smaller park is that instead of paying for land that would already have obstacles etc,. you are now paying to have obstacles made and having to do upkeep on all of them. The smaller the land the more people it will see and the more upkeep will need to be done on it.

Are you planning on coming up with cash to finance this or loans? If I had the cash I would have built a park whether or not it would pay for itself. With a loan of $850k I would have been in the ball park of $6500 per month not including maint, fees, insurance, property tax etc,. Then if you have a job that you need to be to m-f and cant be at the park you either quit your job or pay somebody to be there or take donations and hope people are honest. If not you do just a weekend thing. You would have to make $1600 per weekend just to pay the mortgage and thats every weekend.

Hopefully you can just get the cash

 

[Gibby1]

I'm looking to raise about $500k in cash investors. I'd like to see 5 people at $100k each.

Building man made obstacles is not that hard or expensive. I've done it with our club several times already.

Doesn't matter if it's visible, if it's properly zoned and permitted.

 

[Erik D_lux]

How much are you looking to charge?

I think zoning and permits would be the hardest thing. Have you read about the KYoffroad park that was shut down after 1 yr in business? From what I understand they were operating a fully legit business and then a politicians relative got into some trouble with the owners and all the sudden the park needed a new licence that a judge wouldn't give them (for whatever reason).

 

[Erik D_lux]

Another thing to think about is who your target audience will be

Wheeling isnt wheeling anymore. There are people that like to take their stock pretty rigs up and drive on basically a dirt road. Then there are guys that like to build their rigs to and extreme and bash them up. Of course there are lots of people in between too.

I think a perfect park would be something like Moab. Moab is as easy as it can get and it gets pretty hard too. Something for everyone.

To make your investment back you would have to bring in as many people as you could. To me this would mean bringing in the whole group of wheelers from hardcore to beginners. Again this will bring you back to space constraints.

There is lots of talk about being hardcore or getting out wheeling a lot on the internet. When it boils down to it 99% is all talk. From what I have seen up at Reiter there are quite a few that wheel. If you could get your $500K up front and needed another $400k to get everything situated your now looking at ~$3500 per month or $875 per weekend. Thats every weekend even in the winter, holidays. I would be really really surprised if you could pull a consistent 100 people over each weekend. If you could you would have to charge them almost $9 per day. And right there I think you just lost some business when then can go somewhere else for free.

 

[Gibby1]

I would call Hollister Hill the ideal park.

I can easily fit an event style park in 40-50 acres and include parking, washroom and food facilities, viewing areas, several rock crawl courses, several mud bogs, tuff truck tracks etc, but not a trail system. That's NOT what I'm talking about. A trail system would need to go to NE Washington where you can pick up 20 acres for $30k or $40k. BUT, it's a 5 hour trek from Seattle to get there. You could make a nice destination resort somewhere up there but that doesn't interest me that far away.

Erik, have you been to Cranberry Lake where the Faithwheelers and Webfooters have built an ORV park? It has a barrels race, cross country race, and obstacle course, all for the jeep racers. It also has a drag race area for the jeep racers. There are two 300' mud bogs a tuff truck course, a rock crawl, an almost complete buggy hill, and an obstacle course for the smaller trucks.

It's private land and the land owner only approved a couple of events per year (and was recently shut down temporarily). The site development was not ideal as we had to work around the farmer's farm and could only use whatever areas he approved. Our total space used was around 50 acres and that could be way more efficiently designed if it was purpose built rather than built around the needs of an existing farm.

A going rate in this area would be $3k to $5k per weekend for a club to rent the site to host an event. Add on some day use fees, perhaps in the form of a membership, a couple of professional events each year and it is feasible on 50 acres if it can be had for around $500k including improvements. Leased land is more doable BUT to an investor there's no value in leased land for a non-profit business. There is in a share of real property. The investors may want to purchase the land and lease it to the non-profit company to operate on... Since it would be purchased cash, the terms could be negotiated to fit everyone's needs and the investors would still be able to realize some long term investment benefit from the land. When the business is up and running the ORV could purchase the property back from the investors over time.

There are a ton of ways to structure this, but I need to get about $500k of investment money. I'd be willing to put in $100k personally, but that's it. My wife would KILL me if I did any more than that.