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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Recommend me a PS pump (full hydro)
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slravenel
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They were all PSC - on my old buggy. (CBR is new and unrun yet so I dont have any input there really)
All had a massive radiator style cooler with its own fan...and adequate line size per PSC
First P pump just started to lock up over time and stop giving me the power i needed to turn - I dont know how old this one was, it was on the buggy when I bought it.
Second P pump blew its seals or something apart (in all fairness, I dont know all the technicalities of it) but all the fluid that was supposed to be inside...was now outside...came all out of the back.
swapped to TC pump...killed it one day while having to rev the motor all day to get it to keep up. It locked up like my first P pump did.
went BACK to a P pump and it worked fine until I parted out the buggy. Would have kept it on the new one if I could fit it.
I wasnt unhappy with the performance of the P Pumps...they were even rebuilt by PSC and 2 of the 3 are sitting on my shelf at the shop now. The TC worked OK until i was turning a bunch in the rocks and then I started to not like it. I was even willing to try another one on this new buggy (thinking maybe they had made some updates to them) but ultimately was convinced that it wasnt the best idea and I woudlnt be happy...and to just buy the CBR
Im not trying to argue with you...I know you have done your research. I am just saying that there are absolutely performance differences in the pumps from PSC. Can they all be broken open and tinkered with further and modifed? I am sure they can....but there is a reason why the CBR finds its way onto most new builds. Also a reason why WOD told me that they dont use the TC pumps on the front if they can help it.
They will all work and they will all pump. But some are certainly better than others. (and admittedly, I probably misused the power / speed wording in my first post. Again I was just re-telling what I was told and their choice of words was certainly not technical jargon)
All had a massive radiator style cooler with its own fan...and adequate line size per PSC
First P pump just started to lock up over time and stop giving me the power i needed to turn - I dont know how old this one was, it was on the buggy when I bought it.
Second P pump blew its seals or something apart (in all fairness, I dont know all the technicalities of it) but all the fluid that was supposed to be inside...was now outside...came all out of the back.
swapped to TC pump...killed it one day while having to rev the motor all day to get it to keep up. It locked up like my first P pump did.
went BACK to a P pump and it worked fine until I parted out the buggy. Would have kept it on the new one if I could fit it.
I wasnt unhappy with the performance of the P Pumps...they were even rebuilt by PSC and 2 of the 3 are sitting on my shelf at the shop now. The TC worked OK until i was turning a bunch in the rocks and then I started to not like it. I was even willing to try another one on this new buggy (thinking maybe they had made some updates to them) but ultimately was convinced that it wasnt the best idea and I woudlnt be happy...and to just buy the CBR
Im not trying to argue with you...I know you have done your research. I am just saying that there are absolutely performance differences in the pumps from PSC. Can they all be broken open and tinkered with further and modifed? I am sure they can....but there is a reason why the CBR finds its way onto most new builds. Also a reason why WOD told me that they dont use the TC pumps on the front if they can help it.
They will all work and they will all pump. But some are certainly better than others. (and admittedly, I probably misused the power / speed wording in my first post. Again I was just re-telling what I was told and their choice of words was certainly not technical jargon)
patooyee
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slravenel said:
Sooooo ... you had 3 PSC pumps and all 3 failed? I see a pattern there ...
I was probably being overly-facetious with my first post so I'm sorry for that. The P is analogous to a BBC in that is it big and old. The TC would be to a SBC in that is is small and old. And the CBr is to an LS as it is new and sexy, probably takes advantage of flow simulations that the first two didn't have access to when they were designed. And I guess the TC could be considered louder since it has bearings. Most people won't hear a bearing over a buggy engine though. But when you say louder I think you mean more susceptible to the whining noise associated with cavitation, which is not the case. And you say that the TC won't make the right amount of pressure without being revved when pressure is not dependant on rpm or the pump. (Pressure is created by resistance, and once resistance is met pressure will build almost instantly in any pump until the point where the bypass relieves it.) What you probably meant is displacement, which is also probably what PSC told you and you just mis-quoted. But even that is kind of false because of the way that the bypass valves work. At engine idle the pumps are close to max output displacement already. When they reach about 1500 rpm the bypass valve starts bypassing all flow back to the LP side of the pump. There is only a small window of rpm where output volume is actually increasing. If there wasn't some applications would see drastic increases in speed of steering during revs that that you couldn't control. So yes, the TC will require higher rpms to get to the same displacement as a larger pump at lower rpms. But the TC can, and is, made to spin faster and provide similar output displacements as the CB and P once bypass occurs.
Basically, Saginaw had to design a pump that would provide a consistent volume of output while seeing inconsistent rpms. To do this they had to design it so that it would flow enough at the lowest RPM and more than enough at the highest and then just take the excess and recycle it. If the engine stayed at a consistent rpm they could have just put a pressure relief valve in there for safety, designed the pump with a specific vane capacity, and let it run at capacity 24/7.
patooyee
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CBr I think is a good pump. It is the result of decades of learning and the best match to the rpm's that modern-day engines are putting out. It is currently the easiest, cheapest pump for aftermarket manufacturers to get, too. I think these are all reasons that it is becoming popular.
It's still just a re-worked stock pump though. KRC is the only aftermarket-cast, performance-designed-from-the-ground-up pump out there that I am aware of.
It's still just a re-worked stock pump though. KRC is the only aftermarket-cast, performance-designed-from-the-ground-up pump out there that I am aware of.
slravenel
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I really only kept using PSC through it all because they were very supportive and helpful with rebuilds and looking at the system as a whole. They assured me several times (after an initial line size change before any pumps actually blew up) that my system was setup properly and cooled more than adequately. But I understand what you are getting at there...and there most likely is a pattern there; but they stood behind their product and helped more than they "needed" to. The 2nd P pump blowout was a fluke I believe....that shouldn't have happened and I don't blame that on any sort of design.
You are also probably spot on...the whole thing was an analogy that I was told by some folks that wanted to give it in layman's terms. I haven't opened up pumps like you have and I don't know all the jargon really...but I like analogies, so I went with it
laughing1 Probably with a misquote in there too...I'll give you that one.
"But the TC can, and is, made to spin faster and provide similar output displacements as the CB and P once bypass occurs."
This is where some folks in the know that told me, disagree. I think that they probably SHOULD handle that extra speed of spin (scientific jargon there too) but I just don't know if that is what happens all the time.
You know your stuff though that's for sure...I am not trying to get into a tech battle with you...I don't have that kind of ammo laughing1 And yes...I am also probably sure that there was some sales tactics coming out in there by people too. "buy this new, latest and greatest, pump. its only $100 more" but I was personally willing to try since I have blown up all the other ones.
I really think for the OP that he cant go wrong with any of them....does he need the CBR? Probably not....
You are also probably spot on...the whole thing was an analogy that I was told by some folks that wanted to give it in layman's terms. I haven't opened up pumps like you have and I don't know all the jargon really...but I like analogies, so I went with it
laughing1 Probably with a misquote in there too...I'll give you that one."But the TC can, and is, made to spin faster and provide similar output displacements as the CB and P once bypass occurs."
This is where some folks in the know that told me, disagree. I think that they probably SHOULD handle that extra speed of spin (scientific jargon there too) but I just don't know if that is what happens all the time.
You know your stuff though that's for sure...I am not trying to get into a tech battle with you...I don't have that kind of ammo laughing1 And yes...I am also probably sure that there was some sales tactics coming out in there by people too. "buy this new, latest and greatest, pump. its only $100 more" but I was personally willing to try since I have blown up all the other ones.
I really think for the OP that he cant go wrong with any of them....does he need the CBR? Probably not....
slravenel
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patooyee said:
I havent heard of the KRC...but I want to now...
patooyee
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slravenel said:
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be confrontational by blowing you out with tech either. I do think that CBr is the best of all worlds within the Saginaw line now and I think you have the best pump that PSC offers right now. (Saginaw is owned by MM Knopff now, BTW.)
KRC: http://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/
I haven't ran them myself yet. But after having unreliable performance from every PSC product I have ever owned and not being able to afford Howe I'm basically left with KRC. I have had a few friends buy them so far and they are all very happy. I've seen KRC on every TC buggy that I have ever encountered as well as many Coleworx buggies. I've heard that, if you are local and go buy in person, you can get some great deals, too.
slravenel
Well-Known Member
By all means man... bring on all the tech you can handle. That's what makes these sites so great.
And i checked out their site and am kinda blown away with how cheap these things are. If I didn't have the bracketry and the CBR already; I would give one of these a whirl for sure. If I ever manage to make this one **** the bed...I will check them out too.
I know they use the same brackets as the TC/CB but I like their bracket and pump/res combo that puts everything right there on the end of the head. If you could fit that...it would be ideal.
And i checked out their site and am kinda blown away with how cheap these things are. If I didn't have the bracketry and the CBR already; I would give one of these a whirl for sure. If I ever manage to make this one **** the bed...I will check them out too.
I know they use the same brackets as the TC/CB but I like their bracket and pump/res combo that puts everything right there on the end of the head. If you could fit that...it would be ideal.
TBItoy
Well-Known Member
Re:
I want to build a system with an industrial vane pump and external pressure relief. Then you can pretty much pick the displacement and pressure you want.
I see no reason why you'd need external flow control, unless the max flow is more than your orbital can free flow.... Which may be the case on a high revving motor
I want to build a system with an industrial vane pump and external pressure relief. Then you can pretty much pick the displacement and pressure you want.
I see no reason why you'd need external flow control, unless the max flow is more than your orbital can free flow.... Which may be the case on a high revving motor
patooyee
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Re:
The flow is only constant because it has a bypass valve built in. If not for the bypass valve the vane pump would be rpm-dependant as well. A priority flow divider on a non-bypass pump will accomplish the same thing.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Divider-Valves/
I have a priority flow divider that has an adjustable lever on it.
I know you know all this though ... so I feel like you either had a brain fart or I am missing something.
TBItoy said:
The flow is only constant because it has a bypass valve built in. If not for the bypass valve the vane pump would be rpm-dependant as well. A priority flow divider on a non-bypass pump will accomplish the same thing.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Divider-Valves/
I have a priority flow divider that has an adjustable lever on it.
I know you know all this though ... so I feel like you either had a brain fart or I am missing something.
TBItoy
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Re: Re:
IE being able have full capacity flow at all rpms,
Ideally, I'd use a large displacement pump and a flow divider to send a constant flow to a rear steer solenoid valve, so the rear steer speed is constant regardless of rpm. And the balance flow through the front orbital since the steering speed is dependant on the steering wheel input assuming there is enough flow available.
I left out part of what I was thinking, external flow and pressure control, but using a vane pump rather than a gear pumppatooyee said:The flow is only constant because it has a bypass valve built in. If not for the bypass valve the vane pump would be rpm-dependant as well. A priority flow divider on a non-bypass pump will accomplish the same thing.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Divider-Valves/
I have a priority flow divider that has an adjustable lever on it.
I know you know all this though ... so I feel like you either had a brain fart or I am missing something.
IE being able have full capacity flow at all rpms,
Ideally, I'd use a large displacement pump and a flow divider to send a constant flow to a rear steer solenoid valve, so the rear steer speed is constant regardless of rpm. And the balance flow through the front orbital since the steering speed is dependant on the steering wheel input assuming there is enough flow available.
patooyee
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Re: Re:
I still don't get what you are saying. How does any pump achieve full flow at all rpms?
Or you're just saying that you want to use a vane pump with external flow control so that you aren't limited by an internal valve?
TBItoy said:
I still don't get what you are saying. How does any pump achieve full flow at all rpms?
Or you're just saying that you want to use a vane pump with external flow control so that you aren't limited by an internal valve?
sleepsontoilet
Well-Known Member
PSC now offers an external relief valve to allow more flow. I know Jesse Haines used it on his newest build, but it's high as giraffe poonanny.
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/external-prssure-relief-valve.html
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/xr-series-race-pump-kit-w-external-pressure-relief-valve-and-6lb-relief-reservoir.html
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/external-prssure-relief-valve.html
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/xr-series-race-pump-kit-w-external-pressure-relief-valve-and-6lb-relief-reservoir.html
TBItoy
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Re: Re: Re:
Basically what the $1000 "trophy truck" pumps are accomplishing by being able to supply 8-9 GPM.
Not full flow of the pump, full flow rating that the orbital is capable of bypassing. So the steering would be entirely dependent on driver input rather than limited by the pump, and a pump capable of making 2500-3000psi (which is what most "normal" industrial systems are designed to run at)patooyee said:
Basically what the $1000 "trophy truck" pumps are accomplishing by being able to supply 8-9 GPM.
TBItoy
Well-Known Member
Re: Re: Recommend me a PS pump (full hydro)
I wonder what the actual displacement (volume per rotation) a CBR pump is?
I've already got a pressurized reservoir is built using a 7psi radiator cap, and I'm running a CB pump (basically a P pump with TC mounting location), but I can still out steer the flow (2.5" DE ram, 9.7 cu-in orbital). I bet my pump is just a low flowing model though.
Psc must be blocking the internal bypass in that CBR pump to facilitate the use of an external flow control.sleepsontoilet said:
I wonder what the actual displacement (volume per rotation) a CBR pump is?
I've already got a pressurized reservoir is built using a 7psi radiator cap, and I'm running a CB pump (basically a P pump with TC mounting location), but I can still out steer the flow (2.5" DE ram, 9.7 cu-in orbital). I bet my pump is just a low flowing model though.
sleepsontoilet
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Re: Re: Recommend me a PS pump (full hydro)
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206960376402112&id=1659790041&set=a.2555551782322.124233.1659790041&source=43&ref=ts
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206960381762246&id=1659790041&set=a.2555551782322.124233.1659790041&source=43&ref=ts
I can't remember if Jesse stated the specifics on FB, but he did say they removed the internal pressure relief, which allows it to flow more. Steve Johns is a werock guy from Australia and he is using the same setup on his build.TBItoy said:
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206960376402112&id=1659790041&set=a.2555551782322.124233.1659790041&source=43&ref=ts
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206960381762246&id=1659790041&set=a.2555551782322.124233.1659790041&source=43&ref=ts
TBItoy
Well-Known Member
Re: Re: Re: Re:
No "real" reason. Also after you have a mount built to say an SAE A 2 bolt mount, then you could always just swap pumps to whatever.
It's probably "cheaper" in the long run to just buy the PSC externally regulated "race pump" kit than screwing around with $100-200 industrial pumps and homemade reservoirs though lol
No flow on start up, more energy efficient.patooyee said:
No "real" reason. Also after you have a mount built to say an SAE A 2 bolt mount, then you could always just swap pumps to whatever.
It's probably "cheaper" in the long run to just buy the PSC externally regulated "race pump" kit than screwing around with $100-200 industrial pumps and homemade reservoirs though lol
patooyee
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Re: Re: Recommend me a PS pump (full hydro)
You should try drilling your orifice and tightening the pressure relief valve up. IE, the "West Texas" mod.
The CB should be about .38CID/rpm.
A big issue with moving the relief outside of a CBr in my mind is that a huge source of pump inlet is now removed. I'm sure they expand / port the stock inlet port to help with this.
TBItoy said:
You should try drilling your orifice and tightening the pressure relief valve up. IE, the "West Texas" mod.
The CB should be about .38CID/rpm.
A big issue with moving the relief outside of a CBr in my mind is that a huge source of pump inlet is now removed. I'm sure they expand / port the stock inlet port to help with this.
