Rieter signage bypasses etc

[Comet]

This is a good discussion. I like all the enthusiasm here. I think Hip captured my thoughts best (BTW Hip, I think you were trying to think of WOHVA).
Gibby, it's Reg. 1, not 3. PNW has been involved in supporting clean ups and I bring up the latest issues at the meetings as well as do others.
Zuk, your last comments are putting the cart before the horse. All good things, but none of it will happen until a bill is passed (none is pending) and funding approved. Then all the impacts and assessments can start.
As for trail maintenance, I have said this before and not everyone agrees, or understands this, but I'll try again. Since this is not a funded ORV area, the DNR will only fund projects to protect resources. Even blocking by-passes is lower on their radar than the crime (dumping, partying, meth labs, illegal shooting in non designated areas, etc.) unless the by pass creates a resource problem. That being said, if anyone wants to do some maintenance up there and fund both the materials and labor, you simply need to contact the DNR and let them know about your plans/concerns and probably take them out there to get their approval. DNR does not have the resources for Reiter. That's the bottom line. They do for Walker and are crying for help to spend the money they already have for that area.
RTW so far has focused on other things besides trail maintenance, but it is not out of the question for us. But right now our priorities are getting interest back in patrols, helping DNR with signage in the parking lots (they have approved money for that at urging of RTW), Index Wall issue, clean ups, mapping, etc.

 

[KarlVP]

Hey Mark,

As per my previous posts in this thread. Ron seemed to be very concerned about the dumping / keeping meth out of Reiter. That is why, I guess he seemed so enthused about the gates / guardians.

And what is to say we don't put up some guardians and use COMBINATION locks so those who need to can get past the gates? This way, keys are not involved.

And you also re-affirmed my thoughts about the DNR. They are here to help, not to hinder. If we want to make a difference environmental wise, we should talk to them.

 

[Hip]

Hip, did you ever GET the data?

I have topo software and the mapping software that I'm learning how to use, since I'm working on the Elbe mapping project.

If you have data that can be imported into my Garmin GPS I'll see what I can do about putting it together. At least it will be a start.

gibby no i at this particular time i do not have any data or anything in my hands. Joey Stokes has the mapping software and a gps so he is working with me to get something down. neither of us are very good with e stuff and are trying to learn as we go. we are struggling with it.

Jason aka Sasquatch has not spoken up in a few months and he had a bunch of stuff down but we lost contact. he is a very busy person as we all are. a few others have some stuff down but so far its not in my hands. we contacted the boeing stump jumpers for some help with the single track trails but have not recieved anything from them either.

 

[Toyotanut]

Hey Mark,

As per my previous posts in this thread. Ron seemed to be very concerned about the dumping / keeping meth out of Reiter. That is why, I guess he seemed so enthused about the gates / guardians.

And what is to say we don't put up some guardians and use COMBINATION locks so those who need to can get past the gates? This way, keys are not involved.

And you also re-affirmed my thoughts about the DNR. They are here to help, not to hinder. If we want to make a difference environmental wise, we should talk to them.

Combo padlocks are simply not the answer....anyone can run thru the 3 or 4 number combo locks in a short time. Also there is just too much open area for gates/guardians, unless you plan on doing it at the road and creating a new parking area elsewhere. You can get back into the area from little access trails even before the main parking lot.

 

[Gibby1]

I disagree. Combo padlocks can be PART of the answer. It will keep out the HONEST people. The dishonest people will simply cut it off or find another way around.

It does inform people that the trail or area is obviously closed.

I tend to believe that the good in people will prevail for the majority. If they know that a trail or area is locked or closed, MOST will turn around.

I believe the same is true for bypasses. If more people knew that they were supposed to be using or making bypasses they wouldn't. I'm truly shocked when I talk to someone on the trail who's trying to make use of an illegal bypass. When I tell them that they have to stay on the trail and that's not part of the trail, more often than not, they are honestly unaware and more than willing to comply. It's shocking how many users do NOT know the rules. Explaining the rules can go a long way and making the open/closed trails are areas more obvious will help tremendously.

The other advantage is that if someone chooses not to obey the signs or locked gates, it's open season on them violater for citations, physical torture, use of his vehicle as an obstacle, etc. OK, just kidding on the last 2:kissmyass:

 

[KarlVP]

It's shocking how many users do NOT know the rules. Explaining the rules can go a long way and making the open/closed trails are areas more obvious will help tremendously.

I totally agree with this. Most people that are doing something "against the rules" don't really know what the rules are.

 

[Comet]

I think you guys missed an important point Toyotanut made. The layout and accessiblility of Reiter makes it very hard to just gate up. Those of us that have been working on the ORV designation have wondered out loud how we the DNR is going to handle this when and if the day comes. Too many access points and too many additional places people would cut new access points if the existing ones were gated. You'd have to fence most of the area in. Which might be ok when ORV funding is there, but next to impossible otherwise. Unless one of you want to unload your Microsoft stock you bought in 1989!:clappy:
As far as Ron Whitehall is concerned, he's a nice guy and I applaud his eagerness to get things done. We need to try and capitalize on that. But the truth is, he doesn't fully understand the issues or the area. He's even admitted as much to me. That's ok, we just need to realize what his basis is and it's not land management. Having said that, I do think there are some things we could use his help on and Index Wall is certainly one of them, but State Parks needs to lead that effort. I know they are talking with each other and they will let us know if they need our help. We will continue to follow up on the issue with both State Parks and DNR, but the ball is in State Parks court.

 

[Gibby1]

Comet, I think my point still stands. Despite the fact that people CAN cut around and find other ways in. The responsibile and honest wheelers won't. We're never going to stop the others from driving over a fence even.

The use of gates were possible and good signage will at least inform people. If they still want to get it, they will and they should be prosecuted.

It reminds me of the campgrounds at Elbe and Evan's Creek. They are gated and when closed people will cut them open... THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE CAUGHT AND ARRESTED!

We're not going to stop these people without enough patrols and prosecution. I would make a suggestion that if a sign was posted stating that accessing the campground when closed or destroying Federal property is a criminal offence (or whatever the actual consequence could be) might keep a few more people out. But then again, people steal cars even though they are well aware that it's illegal.

It you could keep out the honest users who are just not informed, I think you might find a promising decrease in the activity in these closed off areas.

 

[Comet]

That's a good point Gibby and you're right, it would keep some people out. But the honest truth is Reiter has years of history that is going to be hard to overcome, even amongst people that are otherwise law abiding citizens. And Reiter's history has been, unfortunately, not always the best. Free-for-all is a word often associated with the area. And overcoming that may take years.
My point is that to even keep law abiding people out with gates would cost thousands and thousands of dollars due to the number of access points that already exist. But I think this discussion is moving too much into a hypothetical discussion.
Paul started this discussion (although his question came in the third post here) and he asked what's the best solution (to keeping unwanted by passes), signs, trail maintenance or both? I still think education is the only thing that can feasibly work right now. I think some trail blocking like what was done on Tight Ass could also work, but not in an area like Sack Up. Different issues and we still want a main trail through there (unlike Tight Ass where the whole area needed shutting down). Plus, I am of the opinion that Sack Up needs at least one bypass. I think signs will be torn down, and I think gates will not provide a meaningful deterrent, nor are they feasible given the economic situation here. But with education, it's cheap and it works to change mindsets, not provide physical barrier, but a mental one. Now I know there will still be people that abuse the place, like anywhere. But Reiter is busy enough with people that if word keeps spreading we might have a chance to make a real impact. Plus, I think the mindset is going to have to change there sooner or later anyway to either keep the place open, or create an ORV park. May as well start now.