Rockwells make your sac swell!

[wont work]

I have an ouverson in the front and welded rear with 115 wheel base. Front and rear steer and only thing I dislike is the locker locking and unlocking when turning. It is not a smooth transition but gets the job done. If I had it to do over I would have just welded both because I can turn around good with the rear steer.

 

[Rockwells607]

I have two rockwelled rigs and the first one I put a Detroit in the front and welded the rear, I don't think it ever unlocks and I've had issues with it when I broke shafts, i welded the rest of my diffs and can't even tell the difference in them, the one rig has rear steer and gets around like a samurai , my buggy is 123" wheel base and doesn't turn the tightest , I front dig a lot and have become accustomed to it and get around just fine with it

 

[Nuts]

Trying to mount my 2x10 single ended steering cylinders and between the bake rotor and tie rod I can't squeeze them in. A double sided cylinder should work since the main body of it won't pivot any. What size double sided cylinders does everyone use?

 

[Eddyj]

I have no first hand experience. But I heard everyone say that the 3
Is way to slow. 2.5 x 10 is the most recommended.

 

[Nuts]

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Cylinders/Power-Steering-Hydraulic-Cylinders/2x10x1-25-DA-DOUBLE-ROD-HYD-CYL-9-6846.axd



Has anyone used these? I'm not crazy about the mounting tabs but clamps can be made to avoid those. So besides that, good? Bad? Ok?

 

[TBItoy]

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Cylinders/Power-Steering-Hydraulic-Cylinders/2x10x1-25-DA-DOUBLE-ROD-HYD-CYL-9-6846.axd



Has anyone used these? I'm not crazy about the mounting tabs but clamps can be made to avoid those. So besides that, good? Bad? Ok?

I've used them on trucks and my tractor, work fine, no issues. Made in USA also. The mounting tabs are easy to use

 

[kody29]

Yes I have same question I'm building my new rig now and not sure which ram to run. I was on the phone with psc and he said 3 in is way to go I'm also on 49s and have blown up 2 pumps with my agg rams

 

[patooyee]

I've never ran 49's but IMHO you (by you I mean anyone in general) are smoking crack if you think a 3" ram is necessary for a rig with 44" tires or less. A 2.5" cylinder will be much quicker and have all the power you need for 44's. 3" is just unnecessary power at the cost of speed. Hell, I've seen monster trucks that are still using 2.5" rams. Yes, some use 3" and even 3.5", but look at their tires compared to ours. That tells you just how out of whack a 3" cylinder is for most of us.

 

[Elliott]

I have the 3" kit on my buggy, and I don't feel I have as much power in my rams as I use to with 2" ag rams on my old buggy, Ive got two KRC pumps that are turned wide open at 3.7 gpm's and my steering is slow. I know that's what psc says they need but I haven't had a very good experience with them on set up advice, maybe im the only one. I think the only way to get the speed out of them that I want and am use to is to go to the trophy truck pump that they have or go to 2 1/4" rams which I think Im going to do, So If you want some slightly used 3" rams I could probably sell you some.

 

[kody29]

I have the 3" kit on my buggy, and I don't feel I have as much power in my rams as I use to with 2" ag rams on my old buggy, Ive got two KRC pumps that are turned wide open at 3.7 gpm's and my steering is slow. I know that's what psc says they need but I haven't had a very good experience with them on set up advice, maybe im the only one. I think the only way to get the speed out of them that I want and am use to is to go to the trophy truck pump that they have or go to 2 1/4" rams which I think Im going to do, So If you want some slightly used 3" rams I could probably sell you some.

Ok how much for the 9 in rams

 

[wimpykid]

I may be wrong , but I thought the PS pump is supplying pressure at a given flow rate and the orbital valve is what actually determines the speed at which the ram operates. I have a KRC pump(1450psi), 2.5x8 double ended ram, and 5.4orbital that is a little more than 4 turns lock to lock. A little slow at speed but good crawling.

With that said, ram and orbital need to be sized together. Most pumps that I have researched are from 1250 to 1600 psi. Orbitals are sized for volume/rev.

 

[patooyee]

When I speak of speed I am speaking relatively. A 2.5 will always be faster than a 3 using the same orbital.

That means the ram should be matched to the orbital. But there is an upper limit to how much fluid a pump can supply. You can't just say "I'm going to use a 5" dia. ram, I'll just get an orbital to make it half a turn lock to lock and there will be world peace," because the pump has to be able to supply the orbital as fast as the orbital is demanding or there will be a lag in the system. I can tell you right now that there are very few pumps on the market capable of supplying a 3" ram enough fluid to go through 8-10" of shaft stroke in 2-3 turns of just about any orbital that is commonly available / affordable to us. In addition, it is a waste to have a ram that is bigger than you need even if you can turn it fast enough. All that extra force robs horsepower at the crank, generates needless heat that you have to dissipate, and isn't realized at the steering wheel. If it only takes 3000 lbs to turn your tires you're not going to care that you have 10,000 on tap to do it. The system only builds pressure until the tires move at which point it self-regulates. With a 3" ram you might have 10,000 lbs of force potential and only ever actually use 3000 of it. And then most guys will skip out on seatbelts, padding, suspension seats or some dumb **** because they had to save money for their steering. DUMB!

Unless your rig weighs like 10,000 lbs with 49"+ rubber 3" rams are a waste.

 

[kody29]

When I speak of speed I am speaking relatively. A 2.5 will always be faster than a 3 using the same orbital.

That means the ram should be matched to the orbital. But there is an upper limit to how much fluid a pump can supply. You can't just say "I'm going to use a 5" dia. ram, I'll just get an orbital to make it half a turn lock to lock and there will be world peace," because the pump has to be able to supply the orbital as fast as the orbital is demanding or there will be a lag in the system. I can tell you right now that there are very few pumps on the market capable of supplying a 3" ram enough fluid to go through 8-10" of shaft stroke in 2-3 turns of just about any orbital that is commonly available / affordable to us. In addition, it is a waste to have a ram that is bigger than you need even if you can turn it fast enough. All that extra force robs horsepower at the crank, generates needless heat that you have to dissipate, and isn't realized at the steering wheel. If it only takes 3000 lbs to turn your tires you're not going to care that you have 10,000 on tap to do it. The system only builds pressure until the tires move at which point it self-regulates. With a 3" ram you might have 10,000 lbs of force potential and only ever actually use 3000 of it. And then most guys will skip out on seatbelts, padding, suspension seats or some dumb **** because they had to save money for their steering. DUMB!

Unless your rig weighs like 10,000 lbs with 49"+ rubber 3" rams are a waste.

I have 2 steer rocks on 49s I wanna run two double ended rams what setup would you recommend , I'm not the best when it ce to math to figure all this out thanks.

 

[patooyee]

The pump does not supply pressure at a given flow / rate. The "specs" you see advertised are what the pumps are supposedly capable of at max performance levels but they rarely, if ever, actually see those levels. If you had a pressure gauge on your dash hooked up to your steering system you would see that the psi is always fluctuating. When you run into a rock and your steering wheel jars the pressure will spike. If you are driving on the road and turning really easy at speed you're probably at just a few hundred pounds of pressure. The relief valve in a pump is not a static set-in device. Is is dynamic in real-time and responds instantly to demand. Its like electricity. The power lines above your house are capable of delivering thousands and thousands of amps. So how come you never see thousands of amps at your house? Because there's nothing in your house that demands it. If there was, the lines going to your house were big enough, and the fuse at your house could handle it, you could pull thousands of amps off the grid. Running 3"+ rams is like running 1-ought cable to every outlet in your house. You'l never need it, so why pay for it?

 

[patooyee]

I have 2 steer rocks on 49s I wanna run two double ended rams what setup would you recommend , I'm not the best when it ce to math to figure all this out thanks.

I'm sorry, my experience stops at 44" tires. And a lot depends on how much the rig weighs. Maybe a heavy rig with 49" tires is where a 3" ram becomes necessary. I can say that my rig is 5500 lbs right now with 44's and 2.5" rams front and rear and has never lacked for power in the steering department.

 

[kody29]

I'm sorry, my experience stops at 44" tires. And a lot depends on how much the rig weighs. Maybe a heavy rig with 49" tires is where a 3" ram becomes necessary. I can say that my rig is 5500 lbs right now with 44's and 2.5" rams front and rear and has never lacked for power in the steering department.
[/quot

I'm about 5000 to 5500 also well hell I'm more confused than I was

 

[patooyee]

Here's some quick numbers for comparisons:

2.5" bore, 1.5" shaft, 1500 psi = 4710 lbs of force potential
3" bore, 1.5" shaft, 1500 psi = 7950 lbs of force potential, almost double the smaller ram

I think PSC's largest orbital is 230 cc? If so, the 2.5" ram is 2 turns lock to lock while the 3" is 3.4 turns. (Assuming 9" of stroke.)

Half the speed, double the power. How many people with 2.5" rams do you hear complaining about lack of power?

Also, think about what those force numbers mean. Put that 2.5" cylinder under the rig pointing at the ground and it will lift a 4700 lbs rig off the ground completely. The 3" would life an 8000 rig. Yet all we're asking them to really do is turn a few hundreds lbs of tire and wheel.

 

[patooyee]

I'm oversimplifying it a lot with that last analogy but I think I got my point across.

 

[wimpykid]

FWIW, I used to have a Rockwell rig with 49's, stock pump, 10x2.5 cheapo ram and eaton orbital. bought the same orbital some buddies with rockwells were using, don't know the specs, but it did fine except when I put a good load on one tire. 5500 lb. rig, extremely downhill, and off camber. Talked to a hydraulic guy and he said the stock pump couldn't push that amount of weight. Never put a good aftermarket pump on that rig so don't know how it would react.

 

[patooyee]

In hydraulic pumps pressure = power and displacement = speed.

Almost ALL PS pumps, stock or aftermarket, are in the 1200 - 1800 psi range. There is very little variance because beyond that the back plates blow off. Some people have experimented with billet back plates and then the retaining rings blow out or the housings crack. So at that point you're faced with designing a new housing and making a $1000 pump which no one is going to buy. This means that you're not really going to realize a large increase of power from a simple pump swap. You will if there is something wrong with the old pump that is preventing it from supplying full pressure. And maybe you will if you go from a 1200 psi pump to an 1800 psi pump. But most people are probably going from 1250 to about 1650 which isn't a huge gain. The biggest strength gain possibilities come from either reducing shaft size or increasing bore dia. of the ram. Force = pi * R^2 * pressure. That means the effect of increasing the radial surface area that the pressure acts on is exponential whereas increasing pressure alone is not.

Most aftermarket pumps will feature a small increase of pressure over stock but offer more in the form of displacement to increase speed. If you want to increase speed you have to fill the cylinder faster. To fill the cylinder faster you have to get a bigger orbital. To feed a bigger orbital you need more displacement from the pump.