then this is the absolute minimum you should be doing to help promote your hobby.
http://www.pnw4wda.org/membership/individual.htm
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Width Restrictions
- Thread starter Wildman1
- Start date
then this is the absolute minimum you should be doing to help promote your hobby.
http://www.pnw4wda.org/membership/individual.htm
I've done a heck of a lot of thinking about this topic since Wildman brought it up on TC. I thought about charging people, body width restrictions, lots of things. . .but it really isn't about the rules. Gibby's guidelines won't be followed by the exact same nimrods that are tearing things up now and enforcement has to treat everyone equally unless the guidelines are made into laws. . .sorry, but that is a fact. Rules don't deter rulebreakers. . .period.
So. . .what is the answer to the subject of this thread? Tread Width. . .
There should be no tread width "rule" on trails. . none. . nada. . .zip. . .because the same people that are causing damage now, will continue to cause damage regardless of an overly complex set of rules that nobody gives a **** about.
The answer is accountability for causing damage. If people are accountable, they will not, for the most part, do things they are not supposed to do. In other words, if there is a much higher likely hood of being apprehended in the act OR you have "skin in the game"($$$) then you are less likely to cause damage.
I really like the idea of requiring people to attend a trail work party every year or two to have a permit to wheel. . .I like it a lot. People should also have the right to "buy out" of the permit with that money going to education, maintanence and enforcement. Also, limiting the number of users in a certain area during holiday weekends would go a long ways to help. . .require a permit to even go up the Little Naches Road or Milk Creek on Memorial Day. And I still think it is OK to charge people to use the land.
I know, I know. . ."I don't want to pay to use public land." . . .public land is your land, for your use. If people are screwing with your property are you going to be willing to put up a little cash to minimize the damage? Anybody put an alarm in their car or a fence around their house? Did that cost money?
Next issue. . ."I can't afford $50 for a recreation fee for Memorial Day weekend". Boo friggin' hooo. . .if you say that, you are in the wrong hobby. Wheelers CAN afford it. It is just a matter of priorities.
Now, take all of that money and put it directly into enforcement. I want Johnny Law watching MY trails as often as possible. Give him hidden cameras, built trail rigs, bigger guns. . .whatever it takes to prevent people from damaging or altering trails. The laws about destruction of public property and resource damage are already on the books with some pretty serious fines, but we need to provide the resources to enforce them. Action follows money is the NEW law of the jungle.
Rules only keep honest people honest. . and, honestly, most of us are already in that category. Let's bring the friggin' heat to the abusers.
So. . .what is the answer to the subject of this thread? Tread Width. . .
There should be no tread width "rule" on trails. . none. . nada. . .zip. . .because the same people that are causing damage now, will continue to cause damage regardless of an overly complex set of rules that nobody gives a **** about.
The answer is accountability for causing damage. If people are accountable, they will not, for the most part, do things they are not supposed to do. In other words, if there is a much higher likely hood of being apprehended in the act OR you have "skin in the game"($$$) then you are less likely to cause damage.
I really like the idea of requiring people to attend a trail work party every year or two to have a permit to wheel. . .I like it a lot. People should also have the right to "buy out" of the permit with that money going to education, maintanence and enforcement. Also, limiting the number of users in a certain area during holiday weekends would go a long ways to help. . .require a permit to even go up the Little Naches Road or Milk Creek on Memorial Day. And I still think it is OK to charge people to use the land.
I know, I know. . ."I don't want to pay to use public land." . . .public land is your land, for your use. If people are screwing with your property are you going to be willing to put up a little cash to minimize the damage? Anybody put an alarm in their car or a fence around their house? Did that cost money?
Next issue. . ."I can't afford $50 for a recreation fee for Memorial Day weekend". Boo friggin' hooo. . .if you say that, you are in the wrong hobby. Wheelers CAN afford it. It is just a matter of priorities.
Now, take all of that money and put it directly into enforcement. I want Johnny Law watching MY trails as often as possible. Give him hidden cameras, built trail rigs, bigger guns. . .whatever it takes to prevent people from damaging or altering trails. The laws about destruction of public property and resource damage are already on the books with some pretty serious fines, but we need to provide the resources to enforce them. Action follows money is the NEW law of the jungle.
Rules only keep honest people honest. . and, honestly, most of us are already in that category. Let's bring the friggin' heat to the abusers.
Not Jobless
Mr Funbags
OG makes some good points about being accountable and even "paying to play".
I do not know about the forest service but, the DNR is not allowed to accept $$$ for access or use in DNR land. You will have to have the State of Washington change that one...good luck :awesomework:
Also, any money obtained through ticketed violations on DNR property by DNR law enforcement does not go back to the DNR, it goes to the same place as profits from timber sales from DNR land.
Great ideas...all of which have been brought up and shot down all to often in the past.
I do not know about the forest service but, the DNR is not allowed to accept $$$ for access or use in DNR land. You will have to have the State of Washington change that one...good luck :awesomework:
Also, any money obtained through ticketed violations on DNR property by DNR law enforcement does not go back to the DNR, it goes to the same place as profits from timber sales from DNR land.
Great ideas...all of which have been brought up and shot down all to often in the past.
I think we've all used bypasses even though none of the bypasses are technically legal... but sometimes it's just necessary. Personally I used them when I didn't know any better. It's a complaint that I've had about many trails, no marking of what is and is not part of the trail. I hope to resolve that at Elbe at the spring work party. I am working towards getting the trail corridors defined and marked on every trail with markers that match the colors of the trails on the map and the signs at the trail heads. At least then you'll KNOW if you're on or off the trail.
I forget who mentioned this but a group using the trail for a permitted event could charge as a fund raiser, if we wanted to raise money for something. I still like the work to play idea, but as Jobless pointed out. It's not likely that on DNR land anyway, you could ever get that to fly without some major legislative changes and it wouldn't be very popular since most don't participate in things like work parties. We've had a total of about 40 different individuals (excluding the Timber Tamers and Dogpound work parties on the trails that they adopted) this year at Elbe. Same people pretty much go every time. It sure would be nice to see a few more people out there. Those house DO directly influence the amount of money made available to us.
Totalled
That Ford Guy
1965 for Ford.
Because a Ranger or S-10 can be had for $500... and will fit on the existing trail... That's why I got a BroncoII... CJ sized. I wanted a fullsize Bronco.. But I wouldn't be able to wheel it around here anywhere.
OG brings up some very good points.
I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone of any size that can do a given trail without tearing it up or making a new bypass. The problem is that not everyone is equal in skill, equipment or attitude. Rules, in general, are designed for weakest of any group. blaz4x4 may be able to do the trail safely and without damage to anything. That doesn't mean little Timmy in his Dad's Silverado can wheel the same area without cutting up 8 cords of firewood.
How do we regulate it and still be fair?
I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone of any size that can do a given trail without tearing it up or making a new bypass. The problem is that not everyone is equal in skill, equipment or attitude. Rules, in general, are designed for weakest of any group. blaz4x4 may be able to do the trail safely and without damage to anything. That doesn't mean little Timmy in his Dad's Silverado can wheel the same area without cutting up 8 cords of firewood.
How do we regulate it and still be fair?
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
The only thing that will keep little Timmy from being a dumbass is a physical restraint. You can't tell Timmy anything. You can't legislate Timmy into being a good samaritan. You can't fine Timmy for being a dumbass unless you can catch Timmy. However, you can put up a big gatekeeper, and Timmy's Dad's Silverado from entering. But can you imagine how tough it would be at Naches? There are a hundred entrances.
DNR has issues for sure.. .recreation is kind of a sidenote to their mission. . .protect trees for schools first (from fire, thieves, disease, etc.) and everything else is an "oh, by the way". . .HOWEVER:
I know for a fact that the DNR will work with user groups that would like to wheel on trails that are CLOSED by special permit. Sometimes they require a bond or a deposit to cover any damage. . .so. . .maybe someone gets a blanket bond, hires Blackwater (they are out of work anyway) and charges people to be part of their user group.
Ok, that last part is a joke. . .but I have gotten permits from the DNR for my club to wheel areas that are shut down. They even send a copy of the permit to the local LEOs so they don't hassle us. They do, however, come sniffin' around camp when the man quiche is ready. . ..
I know for a fact that the DNR will work with user groups that would like to wheel on trails that are CLOSED by special permit. Sometimes they require a bond or a deposit to cover any damage. . .so. . .maybe someone gets a blanket bond, hires Blackwater (they are out of work anyway) and charges people to be part of their user group.
Ok, that last part is a joke. . .but I have gotten permits from the DNR for my club to wheel areas that are shut down. They even send a copy of the permit to the local LEOs so they don't hassle us. They do, however, come sniffin' around camp when the man quiche is ready. . ..
Did I mention that all restrictions are
Trail maintianance is also :rb:
Spend your time and money fixing the parking areas and Campgounds.
I got into this sport to go OFFROAD. If somebody can't make it because their vehicle is under equiped or they just can't fawking drive, I will help them get out if I am around. I have made many friends doing this. They went home worked on there rig so it would work and they came back with a different outlook and had fun building and wheeling. Thats part of the sport. If you are under equiped you either build your rig to do what you need or stay on the logging roads if you don't want to.:kissmybutt:
I think you say alot of what I think, although I believe that SOME "recommendations" are ok, and SOME trail maintainance is ok, too. Say some ruts with a lot of mud are working there way into the nearby stream, and it is a simple fix to direct it into a bowled portion of the woods instead, do it...
I also think you are right about the aspect of the sport, which is commeraderee (sp?), of which I also think that 75% of wheelers are lacking. It is unfortunate. I, too, have met several good people who have either helped my shitbox, or I helped theirs, get out safely and with much fun and enthusiasm. I have been in situations where I have gotten in over my head, somebody helped me, or not... , and I dealt with it when I got back. I made changes, to my style and my rig. Next is a winch, but, like you said, I don't have money just following me around so I can make it look just like the cool trucks in the magazine! :redneck: Hell, half the "badass" rigs I see, or have watched over the years, have switched hands because the fools have lost the love of the hobby.
BTW, I personally think, that just as a simple and prelimenary way of dealing with this, and other issues, is to construct and keep up gatekeepers. I truly believe this is the best way to not only help the cause, but to make a soft enforcement on the usage and users ability on the trail without alienating or insulting peoples ability/vehicle build/status/income..... I have came to several trail heads in the past of which either had a man-made or natural "gatekeeper" at the entrance, and I either tried it and saw my outcome, or I flat said "HELL NO!
Pook
Well-Known Member
Gatekeepers also force some people to question if they can do the trail before driving into it...then they actually walk into the trail and check it out.
A lot of the trails we have been building up here have large natural gate keepers and they seem to be doing a good job of keeping the less equipped and/or less courageous drivers out.
A lot of the trails we have been building up here have large natural gate keepers and they seem to be doing a good job of keeping the less equipped and/or less courageous drivers out.
Wildman1
Well-Known Member
Well Brad I am sorry I have not seen it discussed here before and that is why I brought it up. On the other board I posted the same question on things got a little off-topic and people got butt hurt.
This thread has been a lot better and the info and ideas have been pretty good. Part of the reason I am asking is because I am going to TWO meetings today about trail use in Washington and there are not a lot of motorized use people there. So I wanted to have my thoughts together and an idea of what people want.
Wildman1
Well-Known Member
Here is the meeting I am going to today. Should have posted this link sooner sorry.
http://www.washingtonstatetrailscoalition.org/
http://www.washingtonstatetrailscoalition.org/
Not Jobless
Mr Funbags
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
I cleaned up this thread a little, and moved the mostly non-width related recent content to a new title in the Chatterbox.
Let's keep this one on topic please.
If your thoughts and comments are Width, Size, or limitations therein, let's keep it here.
If your thoughts and comments are of a more rambling nature, from LEO, phone numbers, or whatever, feel free to post up over there.
Let's keep this one on topic please.
If your thoughts and comments are Width, Size, or limitations therein, let's keep it here.
If your thoughts and comments are of a more rambling nature, from LEO, phone numbers, or whatever, feel free to post up over there.
Wildman1
Well-Known Member
Well the meeting has come and gone and I thought I should fill everyone in on what was said. First off there were two meetings but the first one really had nothing to do with motorized users.
The second meeting was for this org, http://www.washingtonstatetrailscoalition.org/
Now last nights meeting was to plan for the confeance that is scheduled for the fall of 2008 in Spokane. So mark it on your canlendars and be ready to attend. Why do we need you to come? There were about 45 people there last night and 6 were pro-motorized use. So what we did last night was come up with an agenda for this next conferance. And even though we were out numbered 3 things that us motorized users ask for were accepted very well.
1) Disabled access- Multiple use route/trails
2) OHV Park in west of Ellensburg & east of North Bend
3) Better Education
So all and all I walked away feeling good about what happened. They will be posting minutes for anyone who would like to read them, just check back to the web site now and then. We really need more people to get involved!!!
Really
The second meeting was for this org, http://www.washingtonstatetrailscoalition.org/
Now last nights meeting was to plan for the confeance that is scheduled for the fall of 2008 in Spokane. So mark it on your canlendars and be ready to attend. Why do we need you to come? There were about 45 people there last night and 6 were pro-motorized use. So what we did last night was come up with an agenda for this next conferance. And even though we were out numbered 3 things that us motorized users ask for were accepted very well.
1) Disabled access- Multiple use route/trails
2) OHV Park in west of Ellensburg & east of North Bend
3) Better Education
So all and all I walked away feeling good about what happened. They will be posting minutes for anyone who would like to read them, just check back to the web site now and then. We really need more people to get involved!!!
Really
