Aluminum Radiators

[NotMatt]

:rb: there was Tech and facts to back up real world wheeling expirences and reasons why it may not be such a bad idea to run an aluminum. Like I explained in the later posts that you deleted rather than just deleting the "personal attack" post.

I guess BRASS COPPER RADIATORS ARE UBER COOL RUN OUT AND GET YOURS TODAY!:Good:

Ok, you're right on the 3rd post. I got an itchy trigger finger after the first two. I restored it, accept my apology on that one, but what I said before still stands. It's fine if you have your opinion and even real world experience, but if you read the rules, I also said "This is not Pirate"... and I think everyone knows what that means as far as the tech section goes (if not, re-read the rules).

Now, if we need to argue more about this, please send me a PM instead of cluttering up this thread.

 

[Jason C]

well your both right. The high end alum. radiators are good units but who has $700 or so to spend on one in the real world. The low end units are made cheap to be cheap and in my own testing (yes I have had both) the stock brass and copper work better and are easier to fix in the field. But thats just my opinion so take it for what you will.


well now my post dosent make any sense

Ron Davis Radiators are $500 with fan and built in shroud and will cool about any V-8 motor. you can just get the rad for around 250 and get it cross flow with a split in one side so both outlets are on oneside only... that style will "over cool" a healthy v-8 without problems (22X19) which is why we use them and most desert racers run them. who makes this fancy 700 dollar rad? that is too WAY too much.

 

[Lamar]

Dear Jason C;
No reason for everybody to get their panties in a knot, my friend! I never stated anything that wasn't factual, or something that is contrary to established data. While it's true that the heat disperation qualities of brass are not that great in comparison to aluminum, the fact STILL remains that brass DOES dissipate heat better than aluminum does, and taking this fact into consideration, why would someone wish to purchase a less efficient aluminum radiator when they can purchase a brass one for LESS MONEY?!? And this my point. I did not offer advice to someone who is contemplating building a million dollar trophy truck, I offered advice to a person who is contemplating installing a radiator into a daily driver, or a weekend rig. So in what way was I incorrect? My posts on heat dissipation were formulated using existing data and and as such, they are correct in every regard. BTW, in all of your posts, I have yet to read where you actually used a single fact to reinforce your position, other than the remark about million dollar trophy trucks using aluminum radiators. I suppose if THEY use them, then they MUST be worth the extra $300.00 dollars, right?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Comet]

Well, I missed out on all the drama, but I gotta side with Jason and the alum. rad. The reason is that alum. rad. does in fact cool better. Even brass rad. manufacturers aknowledge that. Studies have proved it, there is really no point arguing the cooling differences. There may be other reasons to not use alum. rad. on a trail rig, but cooling is definetly not one of them.
The reason is the cooling tubes inside the rad. Copper radiators typically uses 3/8" dia. tubes while the aluminum radiators use 1" tubes . Wider tubes mean more contact area with the fins. Wider tubes require the tubing wall thickness to be increased to prevent the tube from over expanding and ultimately bursting.
In a brass rad. wide tubes are not practical because the radiators would weigh too much. Aluminum can be designed with a heavier wall thickness with very little effect on weight. Brass rads. overcome smaller tube sizes by adding more cores. But a 4 row core has very little use on a trail rig going 2-3 mph all day. By the time the air hits the 4th row, it is very hot and not doing much to cool the fins, which in turn cool the tubes, which is what making efficient rads. is all about.
NASCAR and trail rigs are very different, and they do not use alum. just to save weight. Going 200mph for hours on end is very hard on an engine and heat build up can ruin a motor, even at those speeds. As a result, they use what works best to cool a motor-alum. rads.
I run a Howe rad. and love it. Stays cool all day and after trying everything else to cool my motor down, switching to an alum. rad. was the one thing that helped it get down to where I wanted it consistently. Look for welded rads., not epoxied. Carry JB Weld for trail fixes.

 

[Comet]

And Lamar, the cooling properties of the raw metal material have nothing to do with why an alum. rad cools better. It has to do with physics and design. Like I said, you could make a brass rad. cool as well as an alum. with larger tubes. If that is your argument, then fine you win. Take your 60lb rad. and enjoy it.

 

[Comet]

Oh, and one more thing. Besides only being 2 row, my rad. is also smaller in surface area than the stocker. Yet is still cools better.

Mine was around $200 at Summit.

 

[darius]

Dear Jason C;
No reason for everybody to get their panties in a knot, my friend! I never stated anything that wasn't factual, or something that is contrary to established data. While it's true that the heat disperation qualities of brass are not that great in comparison to aluminum, the fact STILL remains that brass DOES dissipate heat better than aluminum does, and taking this fact into consideration, why would someone wish to purchase a less efficient aluminum radiator when they can purchase a brass one for LESS MONEY?!? And this my point. I did not offer advice to someone who is contemplating building a million dollar trophy truck, I offered advice to a person who is contemplating installing a radiator into a daily driver, or a weekend rig. So in what way was I incorrect? My posts on heat dissipation were formulated using existing data and and as such, they are correct in every regard. BTW, in all of your posts, I have yet to read where you actually used a single fact to reinforce your position, other than the remark about million dollar trophy trucks using aluminum radiators. I suppose if THEY use them, then they MUST be worth the extra $300.00 dollars, right?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Who the hell is this guy? and what's with you're sig line (this guy is a legend in his own mind), also what's with you're style of posting, you're acting waaaaay too educated to be posting on this board. :redneck:

 

[Lamar]

Dear Comet;
Heat is NOT an issue with NASCAR rides, my friend! Keeping the heat CONSTANT is the issue though! In stock car racing, keeping the engine at a constant temp is very important to keeping the engine performing at the same level throughout the day. NASCAR rides don't use t-stats, instead they use restrictors, which are nothing more than a large washer with a hole in it. Different sized holes mean different restrictions, hence different temperatures. Heat is regulated by the use of duct tape over the grill area. To increase cooling, simply remove a layer or two of duct tape. And, those big holed aluminum rads that you are talking about can also be built from brass as well. They are known as high flow radiators and the brass ones are more expensive because they are more labor intensive to manufacture, but they also cool better too. Also, the discussion about dimishing returns is a moot point with a 4 cored rad as well. The point is NOT to keep the temperature of the engine cool, the point is to keep the temperature of the engine CONSTANT. A 4 core rad keeps the engine at a more stable operating temp than it's 2 or 3 core counterpart is able to. This is just a simple fact, my friend. It has nothing to do with what I've written, it has to do with the inherent heat dissipation qualities of brass. Here is the way that I see things. I drive a 4X4 every single day. I haven't been inside of a sedan in YEARS! I mean that quite honestly too. I drive 4X4s in 4 W-LO for days on end and at low speeds with a high load placed on the engine, engines have a nasty tendency to want to overheat VERY quickly. And so, I can state with some authority that a brass 4 core radiator will do wonders to help keep an engine at normal operating temps for very long periods of time without the addition of anti-freeze or exotic electric fan setups. I don't do *trails*. I drive 4X4s all over the place, not in any laid out, well marked trail. One day I may be at 15K feet on the high plains at temps below freezing, the next day in the jungle, in 2 feet of mud with temps hovering around 100 degrees F. I sort of have a pretty good idea about what works in the real world, what is cheap and what can be repaired in the boonies with a minimal amount of time, effort and money.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Lamar]

Dear darius;
My sig line comes from another forum and I've decided to keep it. I am not a legend in anyone's mind. It is just a joke. I can alter, or even remove it, if it offends you that much.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Nuzzy]

Who the hell is this guy? and what's with you're sig line (this guy is a legend in his own mind), also what's with you're style of posting, you're acting waaaaay too educated to be posting on this board. :redneck:

Lamar comes to us from the jungles of Bolivia. The "Lord of the Leaves" goes far beyond this board... I have e-known him for years. I've seen his pic by pic documentation of blacksmithing his own leafsprings. His knowledge of home remedy, low dollar fixes has always been insightful and welcomed in my book. :beer:

 

[Boomer]

Seen in example A is a copper brass core cross section using 1/2" tubes. Much of the cooling efficiency is lost because of the limited amount of tube-to-fin contact. Seen in example B is an aluminum core cross section using 1" tubes. Since the aluminum tube is a minimum of 1", the efficiency of the tube-to=fin contact is much greater. In fact a two row 1" tube radiator has 40% greater tube-to-fin contact over a 4 row copper brass radiator (this can be seen in the examples above by a comparison of the measurement B) Therefore the cooling efficiency is increased by 25% over that of a copper brass core.
Aluminum radiators are also 60% lighter than the same copper brass radiator.

 

[CrustyJeep]

Thank you, Comet and Boomer... Actual tech, oh my!

So to paraphrase... Copper is a better heat conductor, but aluminum radiators can be (or are) built with more tube/fin contact, therefore aluminum radiators cool better due to design, in spite of slightly inferior material properties.

Gotcha

 

[CrustyJeep]

I really do not consider myself a know it all but when it comes to this stuff I am on top of my game. Just like when we call you Crusty.... We need intraweb info we call you. Everyone specialises in something and I hope people can learn from my hardships.

Nobody said anything about your knowledge or experience, only about the way you presented it.

You wouldn't like it so much if you called me with a theory about why your database isn't working so well, and I said something like "you're an idiot, your database is broke because of blah blah, and if you knew your ass from a hole in the ground you'd know that!", that wouldn't come across so well, huh? No matter how knowledgable or experienced I am, regardless of my god-like powers of deduction, I am still expected to be able to explain politely why my opinion is what it is. Even if all I can muster is "well, call it a hunch, but IME a fubard blah blah can cause blah blah and blah blah in the blah blah".

It's better when you whip out the soap stone and start drawing pictures on the nearest piece of steel :kissmyass:

 

[sucmah]

while we are on the subject, what is the big advantage with a double pass radiator as compared to a standard??

 

[Lamar]

Dear group;
An excellent example of *real* tech, but now, to throw another wrench into the works. Who says that brass/copper rads cannot be constructed EXACTLY the same way that aluminum rads are constructed??? Wellllll, they can be!!! And would anybody care to venture a guess about what happens when brass/copper rads are constructed in a high flow configuration? If you guessed that they cool better than aluminum rads, then you get to go to the head of the class! The main reason why brass rads are NOT constructed this way is because they cost more to build and they are a little TOO efficient at heat dissapation. In other words, brass rads cool just fine and dandy in a low flow situation, so building one with 1" tubes is completely unecessary.. Now, let's assume we are building an aluminum rad in a low flow configuration. What does anyone suppose would happen then? If you guessed that it won't lower the coolant temp worth a damn, then you get to go to the head of the class as well! To summarize, any method that you use to construct an aluminum rad with, you can also use to construct a brass/copper rad with. So, the design argument is still a moot point. Better try again...
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[CrustyJeep]

An excellent example of *real* tech, but now, to throw in some *non real* tech

Yeah, but why do that? You gonna go buy a copper radiator with 1" tubes, or an aluminum radiator with 1/2" tubes? No. THAT is the moot point here.

 

[Lamar]

Dear CrustyJeep;
Some day I'll probably get off of my dead ass and construct a brass rad entirely by hand for you guys and post a pic by pic explanation of the process, including the center panel construction, tanks, etc. It takes about a days' worth of hard labor to make a decent one. There's no rocket scientry involved, just a shitload of forming and soldering.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Boomer]

Dear CrustyJeep;
There's no rocket scientry involved, just a shitload of forming and soldering.

Solder is a poor thermal conductor and reduces the ability of the fins to remove heat from the tubes of copper-brass radiators. :clappy:

 

[Totalled]

I have a 17"x17" core, 1" tube, 2 row factory radiator out of a 4.0 Ford Explorer cooling my 302 in my BII. The tube/fin contact area is what makes it more efficiant.

 

[CrustyJeep]

Dear CrustyJeep;
Some day I'll probably get off of my dead ass and construct a brass rad entirely by hand for you guys and post a pic by pic explanation of the process, including the center panel construction, tanks, etc. It takes about a days' worth of hard labor to make a decent one. There's no rocket scientry involved, just a shitload of forming and soldering.

You do that. You'll accomplish NOTHING. NOBODY is going to build a radiator from scratch (unless they're trying to prove some silly point).

AVAILABLE aluminum radiators are known to cool better than AVAILABLE brass radiators. That's all anybody should give two shits about.