MSORP is closing!

[biscuit]

I am working as hard as I can to find a resolve, but at this point I do not have an answer except for closure when the policy runs out. I hope to have more info on other avenues to discuss at the Jan. Jam. Make plans to attend a camp fire talk that Saturday afternoon.

I always tell my kids, Set backs in life are inevitable....... Failure is OPTIONAL

Bob i want to thank you for doing everything in your power to keep it open. I hope you can find a way and if there is anything we can do let us know.

 

[rock yuppie]

Something good is bound to happen. Just gotta stay positive. JAB thanks for the info. I will shoot a PM back.

 

[TacomaJD]

TBLtoy- Come on, what you got against a bunny hugging / tree lover sitting quietly in his cabin giving you a thumbs up as you came ripping by him on the rocks at 6am[size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size]

NO CABIN NATURE PARK. I built it as an off-road park, I would rather it stay that way, but even bigger[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size].

Bigger is better! With new trails always developing and changing there, plus really cool ppl that run it....this place has potential for a damn successful future....just gotta "keep the doors open" somehow.

 

[patooyee]

I, for one, would be happy to pay way more to ride a park for the entire weekend when I go. I've always been amazed at how little places are charging to wheel. All that land, insurance, etc isn't cheap and this whole idea of park owners just needing to break even is gay. What's even more gay is how they are all expected to throw these huge events and then donate so much of the money to a charity or something when they aren't even able to pay the insurance bill. I hate hearing that a park owner is breaking even. I wish more would just run the place like a business and not the USPS. Charge what it REALLY cost to pay for the insurance, land, whatever else, and make a suitable profit. I would pay $100, maybe even more for just the right to wheel for a weekend. How much do we all spend on our rigs? On diesel getting them there? Another $100 to ride should just be another drop in the bucket IMO. And if you really don't have that kind of expendable income well then maybe you shouldn't be doing this??? I'm not rich by any means but for the amount of fun I have the entire weekend wheeling a good park, $100 is cheap. Hell, back when I used to go out drinking I would spend $100/night easy! How much do people pay per year for their hunting land leases? And why WOULDN'T you pay that much to wheel? I bet most of us have way more money into our rigs than hunting gear.

In this day and age it seems like people feel like they have the right to have as many expensive hobbies as they want. I know guys who wheel in their buggy, fish in their boat, hunt with their guns, scuba dive on vacation with their scuba gear, and then complain when the entrance fee at a park is more than $30!!!!!!! That's insane! Its not the park owner's problem that you spread yourself too thin. Pick one, concentrate on it, and leave the rest by the wayside. If you don't have a million dollars why would you think you can live like a millionaire?

Like I said, I'm not rich by any means. Yet when people see my buggy they assume I am am millionaire. I built my own rig, sacrifice a lot to do so. I have no other hobbies. I do what I like with intensity and leave all the inconsequential **** to others who want to be spread thin. That's all. You bet your ass I would pay way more to wheel for a weekend! Hell, if there was a park close enough to me that was cool enough I would pay a few thou a year for a yearly lease on it to share with a few others just like my brother and dad do with their hunting land.

I'm telling ya'll, a PROFITABLE business model for ORV's needs to be developed soon or all the parks are eventually going to close. How long can we rely on the kindness of park owners to enjoy our hobby? ANY TIME a venture isn't profitable its life expectancy is limited no matter how kind the owner. I suspect many park owners are in this category.

J. J.

 

[zukimaster]

AMEN BROTHER!

 

[TacomaJD]

I, for one, would be happy to pay way more to ride a park for the entire weekend when I go. I've always been amazed at how little places are charging to wheel. All that land, insurance, etc isn't cheap and this whole idea of park owners just needing to break even is gay. What's even more gay is how they are all expected to throw these huge events and then donate so much of the money to a charity or something when they aren't even able to pay the insurance bill. I hate hearing that a park owner is breaking even. I wish more would just run the place like a business and not the USPS. Charge what it REALLY cost to pay for the insurance, land, whatever else, and make a suitable profit. I would pay $100, maybe even more for just the right to wheel for a weekend. How much do we all spend on our rigs? On diesel getting them there? Another $100 to ride should just be another drop in the bucket IMO. And if you really don't have that kind of expendable income well then maybe you shouldn't be doing this??? I'm not rich by any means but for the amount of fun I have the entire weekend wheeling a good park, $100 is cheap. Hell, back when I used to go out drinking I would spend $100/night easy! How much do people pay per year for their hunting land leases? And why WOULDN'T you pay that much to wheel? I bet most of us have way more money into our rigs than hunting gear.

In this day and age it seems like people feel like they have the right to have as many expensive hobbies as they want. I know guys who wheel in their buggy, fish in their boat, hunt with their guns, scuba dive on vacation with their scuba gear, and then complain when the entrance fee at a park is more than $30!!!!!!! That's insane! Its not the park owner's problem that you spread yourself too thin. Pick one, concentrate on it, and leave the rest by the wayside. If you don't have a million dollars why would you think you can live like a millionaire?

Like I said, I'm not rich by any means. Yet when people see my buggy they assume I am am millionaire. I built my own rig, sacrifice a lot to do so. I have no other hobbies. I do what I like with intensity and leave all the inconsequential **** to others who want to be spread thin. That's all. You bet your ass I would pay way more to wheel for a weekend! Hell, if there was a park close enough to me that was cool enough I would pay a few thou a year for a yearly lease on it to share with a few others just like my brother and dad do with their hunting land.

I'm telling ya'll, a PROFITABLE business model for ORV's needs to be developed soon or all the parks are eventually going to close. How long can we rely on the kindness of park owners to enjoy our hobby? ANY TIME a venture isn't profitable its life expectancy is limited no matter how kind the owner. I suspect many park owners are in this category.

J. J.

What you aren't taking into consideration are the amounts of ppl that populate these offroad parks every weekend that they are open that would not come if they had to pay $100 to ride. I assure you if gate fees were that, you'd cut the customers in half, if not more than half. I'm sure when you first started wheeling, you were in no shape or form to afford a $100 weekend gate fee plus the fuel for the weekend. Yea sure everyone puts money into their rigs, some more than others obviously...but as often as I like to go wheeling, I'd find somewhere else to ride before I'd pay $100 a weekend to ride at any place, regardless of where. I don't even ride weekends, I usually wheel all day Saturday, then go home. All I'm saying, you make the gate fee some ungodly high price like that, then you're gonna run off half your potential business to other orp's that charge 1/4 of that to ride all day.

By all means, I think what MSORP has been charging (10 bucks a head) is dirt cheap....I'd gladly pay more to be able to ride there, as would many others I'm sure. But you go trying to get rich and putting a bigass pricetag on gate fees, that'll put the business under quicker than ****wad insurance companies would.

 

[jeepgeek2002]

who here remembers River Rock? we paid him over $800 for a weekend of fun on several occasions but it still closed down.. Steve had some bad **** happen like the death of his son not a mile from the park and i think his wife wanted horsees. :****:

 

[BMan]

What are you trying to say Mark?

As American Express would say; "membership has its privileges". I'm in if it helps keep this park open!

 

[patooyee]

What you aren't taking into consideration are the amounts of ppl that populate these offroad parks every weekend that they are open that would not come if they had to pay $100 to ride. I assure you if gate fees were that, you'd cut the customers in half, if not more than half. I'm sure when you first started wheeling, you were in no shape or form to afford a $100 weekend gate fee plus the fuel for the weekend. Yea sure everyone puts money into their rigs, some more than others obviously...but as often as I like to go wheeling, I'd find somewhere else to ride before I'd pay $100 a weekend to ride at any place, regardless of where. I don't even ride weekends, I usually wheel all day Saturday, then go home. All I'm saying, you make the gate fee some ungodly high price like that, then you're gonna run off half your potential business to other orp's that charge 1/4 of that to ride all day.

By all means, I think what MSORP has been charging (10 bucks a head) is dirt cheap....I'd gladly pay more to be able to ride there, as would many others I'm sure. But you go trying to get rich and putting a bigass pricetag on gate fees, that'll put the business under quicker than ****wad insurance companies would.

If it was $100/weekend to ride when I got into this I would never have even thought about getting into it in the first place. I firmly believe that it won't be long before we won't have any public land to wheel on though and in that event the private parks is all we will have. And for those to stay running they need to turn a profit. How do you do that charging $10/head to wheel??? I can't imagine a scenario where that works unless you are selling the **** out of some concessions or something. I've never seen a P&L for an ORV park, maybe I'm wrong? My main point is just that these parks need to be run like a business, not a charity, to survive because good will only goes so far when it comes to paying your family's income out so others can wheel your land and then sue your ass every time they do something stupid. And the same dumb asses suing are probably also the ones complaining about price so maybe its a natural selection thing.

J. J.

 

[TacomaJD]

If it was $100/weekend to ride when I got into this I would never have even thought about getting into it in the first place. I firmly believe that it won't be long before we won't have any public land to wheel on though and in that event the private parks is all we will have. And for those to stay running they need to turn a profit. How do you do that charging $10/head to wheel??? I can't imagine a scenario where that works unless you are selling the **** out of some concessions or something. I've never seen a P&L for an ORV park, maybe I'm wrong? My main point is just that these parks need to be run like a business, not a charity, to survive because good will only goes so far when it comes to paying your family's income out so others can wheel your land and then sue your ass every time they do something stupid. And the same dumb asses suing are probably also the ones complaining about price so maybe its a natural selection thing.

J. J.

True, I've questioned the $10 a head myself before many times how in the world it was enough for them to make anything off of running the park....especially when they do and toys for tots ride which involves all the gate fees (toys) to go to charity and Lisa boiling up a bigass pot of yummy chilli and not charging anyone for a bowl of it. Good ppl that's for sure...but usualy it's the good ppl that get sued over some dumbass's misfortune and lack of concience.

 

[patooyee]

If I owned good wheeling land I would run it like a hunting club. 10 - 20 guys THAT I KNEW would lease the land on a yearly basis. Their lease rate would be enough to pay all my expenses + some profit. They wold have keys to the land and could ride any time they wanted, day night, weekend, weekday. Each would be allowed to take one friend onto the land at once and that friend would pay ME for access. So at any given time the most rigs out there would be about 40. That would keep numbers low enough to where each person could tape a live statement of waiver that would be kept on file. And if I couldn't get enough people together to turn a profit on any given year the land wold just close and no one would lease it.

This is how every hunting club I've ever known is basically ran and few have ever closed up. Yes, some have, but few. Would this limit overall trail access to many wheelers? Maybe. But I wouldn't have to put up with 700 dumbass drunk rednecks revving their engines in the parking lot at 3am and throwing gasoline in the campfires or clogged trails just to break even. And the chances of a lawsuit would be greatly reduced and therefore so would the risk to a potential insurance policy.

J. J.

 

[John Galbreath Jr.]

If I owned good wheeling land I would run it like a hunting club. 10 - 20 guys THAT I KNEW would lease the land on a yearly basis. Their lease rate would be enough to pay all my expenses + some profit.

What do you think a fair rate based on 10 and 20 in this senerio would be?

 

[rock yuppie]

Patooyee, I agree that we have got to be making a profit or the money for trail repairs, bath houses, more land and so on will not be there. Mountainside was not ever intended to be a source of income for the family, but more of a place for my employees to work during the wet winter months to draw a better pay check when the construction jobs were too wet. It just so happens that the park opening fell at the time of the economic collasp which quickly stunted the growth we had set out to achieve. From that point on our main mission was to try and grow conservatively while keeping the gates open for the wheeling community. I am working with some really good people to find a resolve to the closure situation, but I can assure you it will not come before the policy expires in Jan. As far as the gate charges go, I would love to have some rides where people paid a $100 to get in and filled the park up doing so. But even at that I would rather have that money go back into the park for better amenities than to some greedy insurance company. In reality, my goal is as it has always been for the park. I want to provide the wheeling community with a fun and exciting playground, but without the liability exposure to my family and the things I have worked so hard to provide for them. Annual permits with 24/7 year round wheeling is being reviewed as an option.

 

[The-Boss]

If I owned good wheeling land I would run it like a hunting club. 10 - 20 guys THAT I KNEW would lease the land on a yearly basis. Their lease rate would be enough to pay all my expenses + some profit. They wold have keys to the land and could ride any time they wanted, day night, weekend, weekday. Each would be allowed to take one friend onto the land at once and that friend would pay ME for access. So at any given time the most rigs out there would be about 40. That would keep numbers low enough to where each person could tape a live statement of waiver that would be kept on file. And if I couldn't get enough people together to turn a profit on any given year the land wold just close and no one would lease it.

This is how every hunting club I've ever known is basically ran and few have ever closed up. Yes, some have, but few. Would this limit overall trail access to many wheelers? Maybe. But I wouldn't have to put up with 700 dumbass drunk rednecks revving their engines in the parking lot at 3am and throwing gasoline in the campfires or clogged trails just to break even. And the chances of a lawsuit would be greatly reduced and therefore so would the risk to a potential insurance policy.

J. J.

If a club style membership was the only option I would go that route, but that is it. I really enjoy hitting multiple parks, meeting new people and seeing new rigs which would be extremely limited in a club. This is why I usually only go to event rides. The rates for some parks definitely needs to be increased for drivers and riders, but would like to see it made in numbers. I think putting the rate around $50 would put it in the range of the average wheeler to keep the attendance numbers up, new people experiencing the parks and keep the parks making money on the average weekend. I would love to see the parks making lots of money, the sport growing and new parks opening. I really hope the comprehensive waiver form can be a major piece of the solution.

 

[patooyee]

What do you think a fair rate based on 10 and 20 in this senerio would be?

It all depends on insurance rates (which I have no clue what they run) and tax rates. But I am sure it would be in the thousands per year per member. And that would be worth it to me personally to have a dedicated wheeling spot that I wouldn't have to put up with anyone who I didn't want to and could go to any time I wanted. 'Course, I probably wouldn't do much wheeling anywhere else either being that every weekend I go somewhere else would be a weekend I had already paid for at my place. But then again, I'm ure if I brought you in as my friend at my club you would reciprocate about as often with me at your club ...

I realize I am different / more antisocial than others. This may not be the ideal solution, just throwing stuff out there.

J. J.

 

[bluetoy]

Bob, I wish you the best, whatever the outcome of this might be. It's obvious you actually care about the wheeling community and this sport in general. I have confidence you will make the best decision possible given the circumstances.

Awesome bunch of people at MSORP.

 

[rock yuppie]

Waivers have been brought up a lot in the conversations. Let me weed through some of that with everybody real quick. This is the main focus that started the liability concerns in the first place. A waiver is just that. It is a statement of admission that you understand our sport has dangers and that those dangers could result in death. We all sign them because it's what we do for fun. You can get chocked on a chicken wing and die, but I still eat them like crazy.

The troubles with a waiver is this. The persons family member did not sign that waiver. Lawyers search death records every week to find a potential client that has sustained a loss due to the actions or intended actions of others. Once contact is made, the lawyer pumps the grieving family up with all of the money they could be entitled to and offers to take their case for free unless a settlement is reached. At that point they get to claim up to 60% of the settlement. It sound crooked as can be to basically purchase the right to sue on your behalf, but it happens all of the time, and not all, but some time insurance company's offer a reduced settlement to make it go away. Then the business owner's insurance rate start going higher and higher because they are based on the amount of losses a business has experienced. JAB on here can explain that in better detail than I can if someone wants to dig deeper into how the scoring system works. Bottom line, a business owner could spend hundreds of thousands defending a law suit before it ever reaches a judge and jury.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

 

[patooyee]

Boggs and Boulders down here in FL opens every weekend for ATV's, campers, wheelers, bikes, hikers, etc. I don't know how much profit they are turning out if any but they seem to have kept it going for a while and every weekend the park is full of people enjoying the family atmosphere. They have camping, playground, swim holes, caves to explore, a restaurant on site, a bunch of other stuff. We just don't have the terrain for the extreme obstacles that the foothills do. But possibly they could be used as as template for others?

J. J.

 

[TBItoy]

Here are my thoughts on rates:

Unless I go to Goldern Mountain (20 minute drive), I ALWAYS camp... ALWAYS. I cant get all the riding I want in in one day, especially if they don't allow night riding.

My favorite riding is showing up on Friday night and leaving Sunday morning.

I'd really think that $50 per RIG per Weekend is about the minimum I'd expect to pay at most parks that have restrooms/running water. If I had to pay $50/person to tent camp in a field with no amenites for me and the woman, it's probably not gonna happen.

Many Parks do not charge "enough", $10/person is cheap, especially if it is $10 per RIG.

 

[TacomaJD]

Waivers have been brought up a lot in the conversations. Let me weed through some of that with everybody real quick. This is the main focus that started the liability concerns in the first place. A waiver is just that. It is a statement of admission that you understand our sport has dangers and that those dangers could result in death. We all sign them because it's what we do for fun. You can get chocked on a chicken wing and die, but I still eat them like crazy.

The troubles with a waiver is this. The persons family member did not sign that waiver. Lawyers search death records every week to find a potential client that has sustained a loss due to the actions or intended actions of others. Once contact is made, the lawyer pumps the grieving family up with all of the money they could be entitled to and offers to take their case for free unless a settlement is reached. At that point they get to claim up to 60% of the settlement. It sound crooked as can be to basically purchase the right to sue on your behalf, but it happens all of the time, and not all, but some time insurance company's offer a reduced settlement to make it go away. Then the business owner's insurance rate start going higher and higher because they are based on the amount of losses a business has experienced. JAB on here can explain that in better detail than I can if someone wants to dig deeper into how the scoring system works. Bottom line, a business owner could spend hundreds of thousands defending a law suit before it ever reaches a judge and jury.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

Lost of good info right there! Crooked world we live in that's for sure....corrupt too.