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rock yuppie said:
Waivers have been brought up a lot in the conversations. Let me weed through some of that with everybody real quick. This is the main focus that started the liability concerns in the first place. A waiver is just that. It is a statement of admission that you understand our sport has dangers and that those dangers could result in death. We all sign them because it's what we do for fun. You can get chocked on a chicken wing and die, but I still eat them like crazy.

The troubles with a waiver is this. The persons family member did not sign that waiver. Lawyers search death records every week to find a potential client that has sustained a loss due to the actions or intended actions of others. Once contact is made, the lawyer pumps the grieving family up with all of the money they could be entitled to and offers to take their case for free unless a settlement is reached. At that point they get to claim up to 60% of the settlement. It sound crooked as can be to basically purchase the right to sue on your behalf, but it happens all of the time, and not all, but some time insurance company's offer a reduced settlement to make it go away. Then the business owner's insurance rate start going higher and higher because they are based on the amount of losses a business has experienced. JAB on here can explain that in better detail than I can if someone wants to dig deeper into how the scoring system works. Bottom line, a business owner could spend hundreds of thousands defending a law suit before it ever reaches a judge and jury.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
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This is not the first I have heard of this. Hell, I've personally almost been sued by my own insurance company on my wife's behalf. So nothing is sacred in the land of insurance and litigation.

J. J.
 
great american park seems to be similar to bogs and boulders... everytime they are open, there are 1000's of people there... they charge by the head, not by the rig... usually young kids are free, but other than that it has always baffled me at the number of "freeloaders" that come to a park... passengers still use the restrooms, create garbage, and use up utilities, all at the expense of the park owner... much along JJs train of thought, i think if the rates at ALL orv's went up, then there would be none of this "going to a cheaper place" mentality... its like buying gas... its $3 a gallon everywhere, so who are you going to boycott because of high prices, no one, they are all the same... you just pay it and get over it...
 
My restaurant isn't the cheapest BBQ joint in town. Its not the most expensive either. We just to charge what we have to charge to turn an acceptable profit while staying in line with where we want to be compared to our competitors while we control costs and eventually the competitors disappear and we reap the benefits. It is the way of the free market. I realize that it is difficult to "stay the course" for these places facing such large potential losses though. But on the other hand, if one park sees that the other is getting slightly more, won't that park then say, "Hey, if they are getting more, why can't we?" Maybe this way eventually over time parks can begin charging fees that more closely reflect the actual costs of operation?

J. J.
 
Another example:

As everyone knows by now I live near and often travel over the most expensive toll bridge in FL. They recently went bankrupt but for reasons not related to their business practices. (Turns out it was the brain child of corrupt politicians who took the money and ran.) Setting that aside, over time prices went up and up, all the time people raised hell, said they would go around the toll bridge from now on, stop using it, etc. (It is only a bridge of convenience, there are longer routes around it to get to the same places that do not have tolls.) Yet, with every raise in price usage did not go down at all. They are a publicly held company so they have to publish their statistics online every quarter. I have gone over them in depth and it is amazing. Virtually no one stopped using them as they said they would. If anything usage only went up.

Moral of the story is that there often is a point at which people say they will stop usage but in reality do not.

J. J.
 
I don't have much to add. But I'm with some of the others. I would pay a good bit more to ride. 75-100 buck entry fee is generally the least expensive part of the equation. By time you fill up the tow rig, the rig it self, buy food and drinks, part runs at what ever cost so you can keep wheeling or whatever. This is not a cheap sport to be in and you have to pay to play. Get the waiver locked down, "lease" the land to people who want to ride or whatever. People have been paying 50-75 bucks a ride at Grayrock for the longest time and when there is a ride people show up. They may bitch about the price but they are still there even without hookups, bath houses etc out past the pavilion. I have never been up to MSORP to wheel but will make the Jan ride and if there is anything I can do I will.
 
Ok, I think we are putting the cart in front of the horse. It's typical internet babble hear. Lets break it down.
1. Bob needs a better insurance policy. Thats the number one thing.
2. This better policy is going to cost a few extra bucks.
3.Evidently the park isn't bringing in enough money to pay for this better policy.

Now, how do we solve this.
SOLUTIONS
1. Bullet proof waivers, Naw that won't work just meaningless ink on paper.
2. Charge more top get into the gate. Possible solution
3. Make it a private club memebers only park. Now all you need to do is find enough like minded people to split the cost of a 20k+ policy and land taxes and general up keep, oh don't forget a little profit for Bob. Good luck on finding 30 people that want shell out $1,000+ to ride at one park all year.
4. I think the most realistic way is to find out how many people visit the park a year on average. Take that number and just divide it into 30,000. (i dont know if this is what needs to be made a year or not just an example number for me)
5. Since I don't have the amount of people # at hand lets do some Basic math.$30,000 divide by the # of weekends in a year =577 people need to be at the park every weekend to ride. Each has to pay atleast $52 for entry. We all know thats not going to happen every weekend.
6. Ok take the above number s and do some realistic math. I would say on average there are 20 people at Mountainside each weekend on average. . Now how much do each person through the gate need to pay .Believe it or not it comes to roughly $30 a person.
7. In reality all this above jabber jabber comes down to if you want to support your local ORV. Go as often as possible. It's not all about the money it's more about how often we actually go wheelin. So I would guess the bichy $10 paying guy that wheels every weekend is actually supporting the ORV park better than the twice a year $100 paying guy.
 
kid rok said:
Ok, I think we are putting the cart in front of the horse. It's typical internet babble hear. Lets break it down.
1. Bob needs a better insurance policy. Thats the number one thing.
2. This better policy is going to cost a few extra bucks.
3.Evidently the park isn't bringing in enough money to pay for this better policy.

Now, how do we solve this.
SOLUTIONS
1. Bullet proof waivers, Naw that won't work just meaningless ink on paper.
2. Charge more top get into the gate. Possible solution
3. Make it a private club memebers only park. Now all you need to do is find enough like minded people to split the cost of a 20k+ policy and land taxes and general up keep, oh don't forget a little profit for Bob. Good luck on finding 30 people that want shell out $1,000+ to ride at one park all year.
4. I think the most realistic way is to find out how many people visit the park a year on average. Take that number and just divide it into 30,000. (i dont know if this is what needs to be made a year or not just an example number for me)
5. Since I don't have the amount of people # at hand lets do some Basic math.$30,000 divide by the # of weekends in a year =577 people need to be at the park every weekend to ride. Each has to pay atleast $52 for entry. We all know thats not going to happen every weekend.
6. Ok take the above number s and do some realistic math. I would say on average there are 20 people at Mountainside each weekend on average. . Now how much do each person through the gate need to pay .Believe it or not it comes to roughly $30 a person.
7. In reality all this above jabber jabber comes down to if you want to support your local ORV. Go as often as possible. It's not all about the money it's more about how often we actually go wheelin. So I would guess the bichy $10 paying guy that wheels every weekend is actually supporting the ORV park better than the twice a year $100 paying guy.
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Good point, but I do believe 10 bucks a day to ride is way to low. I have often wondered how there was any profit for the owners at that price.
 
[quote author=Neal3000]
have any of the parks around here ever been sued?
[/quote]

i'm guessing not?

if you think about it, if the ORV park forms a LLC (which i'm sure they have done to protect their private property and earnings from a lawsuit) then really all a person could sue for is the land that the park is on. I really doubt that too many law firms are going to be real interested in suing an unprofitable LLC for land that isn't good for much of anything and would be hard to sell on top of it.

THe people who should really be scared to death of lawsuits is us the people using the park, if you injure someone else while riding or through your actions then they could sue you for everything you own.
 
irokcrawl said:
Good point, but I do believe 10 bucks a day to ride is way to low. I have often wondered how there was any profit for the owners at that price.
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If the person paying $10 wheeled there every weekend at 52 weeks a year then how much did he help the park over you going 3 times that year and payed $100 each trip?

He stated that if the rate went up $20 then there was a better reality of paying the higher insurance. Now you have to go back a read all of the statements made here and realize that the insurance cost isn't the problem. It's the liabilty of being sued regardless of waiver which is intented to protect the park owner from the customer's greedy nature who decided he didn't want to pay copay with his own insurance. They want some one else to deal with the out of pocket expenses of their misfortune while enjoying an outing at an offroad park.
 
DANG,,,, all this type of talk is makin me DIZZY :spin:

Yall just get it all sorted out and then let me know what I need to pay to continue to ride at MSORP from now on :****:

;D
 
<BMan Rant on>
Bob the bottom feeding lawyers will always be out there pumping/pushing the "get something for nothing scenario". Problem is no matter what you put in a waiver can be argued in court one way or the other. Lawyers create the foo game to get rich and often our own laws, waivers, regulations etc are created with huge holes where a semi can be driven through em and where lawyers can make arguments. However there is such a thing as "best practice" and "best attempt" or at least being able to show due diligence. Regardless of what is put in the wavier and signed and looking at this holistically can can WE say everything within are ability is being done???.......Private park with club, family or individual memberships may help insure the right people are helping with a due diligence scenario IMO. However since you'll never be able to encompass every scenario or put enough into a waiver to fully cover your tracks you also won't be able to do this alone. Nothing can stop someone from getting butt hurt over stupid things a relative/family member did and ultimately per-suing retribution.

So this is where IMO "best practice"/ and "best attempt" approach comes into play. Can WE honestly say WE as the offroad community are doing enough to insure a scenario that will best hold up against lawyer and insurance company "onslaughts"? I don't think WE are. How can WE together fill most of the holes in our waivers, methods etc to show due diligence? By making it a private park with club, family and individual memberships you would be taking one more step in this direction IMO but only if those involved support the park in a mutual WIN/WIN manner?

So how can WE the offroad community come together and help keep this park open? it will take more than just paying a reasonable fee etc. I'm not sure what the saturation point is but I do believe we have enough clubs, families and individual's able to contribute resources to keep this park going. I've been as guilty as the next person not helping ya'll out enough. Come rain or shine I'll be at the January ride in hopes we can discuss how WE the offroad community together can support this effort in a fair and beneficial WIN/WIN manner to better our hopes at showing due diligence to the blood sucking insurance and law firms! :****:

God Speed you on your journey till then Bob!

Peace! :drinkers:

<BMan Rant off>
 
kid rok said:
. So I would guess the bichy $10 paying guy that wheels every weekend is actually supporting the ORV park better than the twice a year $100 paying guy.
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You callin me bitchy? LMAO just ****ing with you

I'd be more than happy to shell out $30 everytime I went to MSORP if that's what it took to keep that bitch open...been there bout everytime the gate has been open this year except for a few months back in the summer when my rig was down. Worth every dime of that plus some in my opinion.
 
To be honest with you it's the videos of most of you guys at parks like MSORP that have gotten me to the point of building my once stock 94 YJ up more and more every chance I get so I can go do those parks and obstacles that I watch in the videos or on the side lines. I have been to Choccolocco with the jeep and enjoyed it, but was upset when I left because I couldn't get on the trails for the big rush like the more built rigs are. I am hoping that WE can all ( nebs getting in as well as seasoned wheelers)help find a solution to keeping this one and any that may follow open.
 
??? just a little basic math is $30,000 divided by 52 weeks a year equals $577 a weekend which means 57 people at $10 a head , 29 people at $20 a head , 20 people at $30 a person and so on and so on................
 
Why not just do what the skating rink does, they have those little signs up ALL OVER the iside of the skating rink that says on them ......

SKATE AT YOURE OWN RISK, NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR INJURIES.

And I have seen them haul kids out of there lots of times all bloody with bones pokin outta arms & legs & **** and the skating rink NEVER gets sued over it :****:

We could just make up the little admission arm bands that says it on em,"along with the signs",....

BY ATTACHING THIS ARM BAND ON MY PERSON I AGREE TO WHEEL/SPECTATE AT MY OWN RISK, AND WILL HOLD NO LAND OWNERS OR OTHER PERSONS RESPONSIBLE FOR INJURIES TO MY PERSON,

OR ANY DAMAGE TO MY PERSONAL PROPERTIES.

And if they wont put on the arm band then get the **** off the property :gtfo:

SEE..... a simple solution even stupid people can understand ;D
 
What about something they did for Gulches.. it was a Save Gulches event it drew thousands of people to the park...
we could promote a SAVE MSORP EVENT! $50/day or $100 the weekend just to get a big chunk of change... Offroading community has taken a hit with the economy sucking. My wife's been out of work for over year and she's a social worker! Theres always bad parents out there, but no work!
But companys both local and out of state are helping parks stay open. Get some rock band to show up.. all proceeds go to the park.. well you get the point.
just throwing the idea out there :drinkers:
 
All comments are highly appreciated and considered. I am working with some extremely talented folks in an attempt to keep this property available for everyone to enjoy without having anyone liable from an accidental wheeling incident. I will keep everyone up dated as plans start going together.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
 

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