Naches west

[pokey]

The obvious answer is all the trails in manastash/naches and liberty are lost every spring due to the seasonal closure. Your question then begs the question that started this whole conversation. I assume by your question that you believe that no trails have been lost. So I ask you, name one legal sanctioned trail that has been lost because of people with an attitude like mine?

They are not lost they are just regulated by the powers that be. IF we had large numbers of members as do the greenies we to could sway the rules to our favor but alas this is where were at because people just don't care enough to be involved. You answered your own question. Its people with a attitude that rutting of trails to a point that their impassable to the majority that brought on the spring closures in the first place plain and simple. If we were large enough of an organization we could have probably stopped the seasonal closures but once again were not so we have to negotiate and sometimes concede to keep what we have. If you want change then join up get your friends to join up and everyone that you see in the woods to join up and when we have 50,000 members we will have the clout to fight the greenies in the legislature and the courts. Fighting with me and the people like me that are keeping things open to our best ability is self defeating. Pick your fights better and direct your anger to a more appropriate place and you might just get somewhere.:awesomework:

 

[pokey]

This is what money buys and these are the kinds of things we could be doing with massive membership.


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[whatthe?]

They are not lost they are just regulated by the powers that be. IF we had large numbers of members as do the greenies we to could sway the rules to our favor but alas this is where were at because people just don't care enough to be involved. You answered your own question. Its people with a attitude that rutting of trails to a point that their impassable to the majority that brought on the spring closures in the first place plain and simple. If we were large enough of an organization we could have probably stopped the seasonal closures but once again were not so we have to negotiate and sometimes concede to keep what we have. If you want change then join up get your friends to join up and everyone that you see in the woods to join up and when we have 50,000 members we will have the clout to fight the greenies in the legislature and the courts. Fighting with me and the people like me that are keeping things open to our best ability is self defeating. Pick your fights better and direct your anger to a more appropriate place and you might just get somewhere.:awesomework:

Well, again we're going to disagree. Having trails closed for 4 months out of the year is a loss.
You stated " Its people with a attitude that rutting of trails to a point that their impassable to the majority that brought on the spring closures in the first place plain and simple" With that statement I assume you believe I belong to this group. I do, but so do the members of the PNW4WDA unless none of them wheeled until June 15th every year. Your members (unless they stayed out of the woods) contributed to the closure by being on the trails. That's my point, you claimed people like me were responsible for trail loss (which now you state hasn't occured) when I was of the same mindset as your members. I wheeled on legal trails, stayed out of meadows, drive sober and pick up trash, ect.
I appreciate the work you guys do, both on the ground and politically. When you state people with my attitude are the reason for closures, you're correct but ONLY IF your members are included in that group as well because we all shared the same attitude and trails before the closure. I'm not trying to bash the PNW4WDA but when you say I'm responsible for something you need to be correct.

 

[Phantom 309]

The only and I mean ONLY reason we have any legal trails in this state is due to the efforts of the pnw4wda and its members. Prove me wrong if you think you can.

I'm going to regret sticking my fat head in this but that statement has not sat well with me since I first read it. To say that the PNW is the ONLY reason is tough for me to swallow. I respect and support the PNW (yes, I am a member,) as well as have friends within it that I love. I also will agree that, over the length of time that it has existed, the PNW has done more than any other group to protect our hobby. But to say that you "are the only, and I mean only reason that we have any legal trails in this state" is the kind of arrogant, narrow minded statement that turns off the new generation of wheelers. With all due respect, Jim... How about showing some humility, respect, and thankfulness for the individuals and groups that are not members for their help? Don't say that they are not contributing, the last couple of years especially, because I have seen it. At meetings, at work parties, and behind the scenes. It's these people that are the future and, although they have made strides, if the PNW does not embrace them, all the good work you have done over the years will be for not as the PNW slowly goes by the wayside.

I know this probably will offend you, but that is not my intention. I am as passionate about our lands as you and that is why I felt the need to voice my opinion as well.

 

[pokey]

well you kind of took that out of context. as whatthe even said in his post he knows that we were responsible for the last 40 years of creating and maintaining the existing trails true and fact. I'm glad that you have now become a member of the PNW4WDA and I appreciate all the work that you and your group do for the trails on the east side but if you have any history of my posts and I know you do you don't understand the true context of the meaning.The PNW4WDA is the reason why we have our trails we're the ones that secure the funding, force the Forest Service and agencies to have open discussion in meetings and we're the ones that represent our sport at said meetings. yes there are a few people out there doing great work show up once in a while to a meeting but soon get frustrated and leave.We however are still here and not going anywhere. I have been very impressed with the WTF group for their efforts at Elbe they have really stuck it out and are creating a very unique area. there are also groups like yours off camber and the Gleed boys also part of off camber have helped out tremendously at work parties and doing work on the ground but let's face facts that work wouldn't be being done if it wasn't for our efforts to keep the trails open in the first place at the same or legal arena. I'm not offended not in any way shape form or fashion but I do have to say that my give a damn is pretty well broken anymore so for anybody else that wants to reply to this feel free just don't expect me to reply
I am just tired of it and would rather spend my time concentrating on actually getting the work done on the ground.

Edit. So how do we engage these younger users ? How do we get it through to them that unless we grow into or create a large membership base $$$ that our hobby as a whole will all but disappear in our lifetime.

 

[Phantom 309]

...but if you have any history of my posts and I know you do you don't understand the true context of the meaning..

You might be right because I don't understand what you mean here. Just for my own clarification, what context do you mean? Is this about the whole "perception" thing that we spoke about a couple years ago?

Regardless, I appreciate your last reply. I'm not trying troll you or bait you into anything. Even if we don't end up agreeing on everything, I think that opening the lines of communication is good. I do have some things to add regarding your last question though. It's probably going to end up being waaaay more than I can type on a phone so it may have to wait a couple days.

 

[whatthe?]

I don't mean to be adversarial but if you reference me or quote me, you need to be correct. Where did I say "as whatthe even said in his post he knows that we were responsible for the last 40 years of creating and maintaining the existing trails true and fact." I stated I appreciated the work the PNW4WDA does. The PNW4WDA is not responsible for all trail creation and maintenance in the last 40 ysrs. I would agree that they have done a lot but not all of the work. Yes, it would be great if more people would join but there are some fundamental issues that prevent some and (no joke) wheelers are cheap and not in great number.

 

[pokey]

My bad :booo:

 

[dirk]

is the kind of arrogant, narrow minded statement that turns off the new generation of wheelers. With all due respect, Jim... How about showing some humility, respect, and thankfulness for the individuals and groups that are not members for their help? Don't say that they are not contributing, the last couple of years especially, because I have seen it. At meetings, at work parties, and behind the scenes. It's these people that are the future and, although they have made strides, if the PNW does not embrace them, all the good work you have done over the years will be for not as the PNW slowly goes by the wayside.

I agree with Phantom :awesomework: Jim...I know your give-a-damn is busted, but you still represent the PNW4WDA everytime you post up.

So how do we engage these younger users ? How do we get it through to them that unless we grow into or create a large membership base $$$ that our hobby as a whole will all but disappear in our lifetime.

I think if the PNW4WDA wants people to join the org, more could be done to reach out & welcome all 4x4 users in. I always hear folks within the PNW4WDA say, "if people want to see the PNW4WDA change, they need to join & make change from within." That approach doesn't seem to be working.

 

[pokey]

Wonder if it would help if more of our members on here would post up the positive aspects of our org instead of sitting quietly on their hands. Maybe defend OUR organization when the detractors and flat out liars cut US down. Maybe if that was happening I wouldn't have to be quite so "vocal" :cheer:

 

[Murkman]

Wonder if it would help if more of our members on here would post up the positive aspects of our org instead of sitting quietly on their hands. Maybe defend OUR organization when the detractors and flat out liars cut US down. Maybe if that was happening I wouldn't have to be quite so "vocal" :cheer:

Careful what you ask for.

 

[Phantom 309]

Careful what you ask for.

I hear ya, Murk. That can be a slippery slope, but someone needs to start speaking out in a different manner to these "youngsters."



Pokey, I can tell that you're tired and frustrated and I don't blame you. You've worked hard and poured a large part of yourself into this issue. That's part of my point though....today's thinking (at least by perception) within the PNW isn't working with most of todays wheelers. Instead of beating your head against the wall, take a hard look at what is and isn't working and why. Then make adjustments. This is how business' and corporations stand the test of time and the PNW isn't any different. Build for the future.

You asked how to get new people involved. I really have a lot to say about that but I want to know if you really are ready to hear it. Even though I don't want it to be, it's probably going to sound like a bitch session about the PNW. I don't want to push past your breaking point. lol

 

[dirk]

Wonder if it would help if more of our members on here would post up the positive aspects of our org instead of sitting quietly on their hands. Maybe defend OUR organization when the detractors and flat out liars cut US down. Maybe if that was happening I wouldn't have to be quite so "vocal" :cheer:

I don't think that this responsibility should fall on your shoulders alone...or even other individual members.

Instead of always defending the PNW4WDA, wouldn't it be nice if the org was pro-actively working on a PR approach that made users outside the org WANT to get involved?

As they say, "actions speak louder than words".

...and my apologies if this sounds like bitching. Like Phantom, I think a new approach is needed. :awesomework:

 

[shrek1]

I hear ya, Murk. That can be a slippery slope, but someone needs to start speaking out in a different manner to these "youngsters."



Pokey, I can tell that you're tired and frustrated and I don't blame you. You've worked hard and poured a large part of yourself into this issue. That's part of my point though....today's thinking (at least by perception) within the PNW isn't working with most of todays wheelers. Instead of beating your head against the wall, take a hard look at what is and isn't working and why. Then make adjustments. This is how business' and corporations stand the test of time and the PNW isn't any different. Build for the future.

You asked how to get new people involved. I really have a lot to say about that but I want to know if you really are ready to hear it. Even though I don't want it to be, it's probably going to sound like a bitch session about the PNW. I don't want to push past your breaking point. lol

I would like to hear what you have to say Phantom. I believe a lot of others would as well.

 

[pokey]

I don't think that this responsibility should fall on your shoulders alone...or even other individual members.

Instead of always defending the PNW4WDA, wouldn't it be nice if the org was pro-actively working on a PR approach that made users outside the org WANT to get involved?

As they say, "actions speak louder than words".

...and my apologies if this sounds like bitching. Like Phantom, I think a new approach is needed. :awesomework:

That's all great but who's going to do it ? Who will step up and make these changes:eeek: the region two PR position is open I believe and I believe so is the position at the pnw level.

 

[Phantom 309]

That's all great but who's going to do it ? Who will step up and make these changes:eeek:

Hmmm....the members of the PNW would be my guess. The association as a whole is in charge of their own fate. If you think someone from the outside is going to just show up one day and change things...well then I don't even know what to say to that.
As with any business the changes must come from within. I REALLY hope that I am wrong but I doubt it will happen because I don't believe that most (not all) people in the PNW do not think that there is even an image problem.

 

[pokey]

But here we are with a couple of the loudest calls for change coming from a couple of existing members who have great ideas and yet nobody wants to step up :eeek: some of you may not like me or what you believe I stand for but at least I put my money where my mouth is. yes I know I'm rude and pushy with no class.

 

[pokey]

Careful what you ask for.

Why. You know better. In all of the years you have known me have you ever known me to run from a fight or challenge ? Change is good when there's a benefit from it. Change for the sake of change is a tool of pacifists. And Merrick you know better than most that I am always open and supportive of change for the greater good.

 

[dirk]

But here we are with a couple of the loudest calls for change coming from a couple of existing members who have great ideas and yet nobody wants to step up :eeek:

Getting my foot in the PNW4WDA door has been a long process. There is only so much you get to do as an Individual Member of the association...holding an elected office is not on that list. It took me a long time to find a club that fit and after joining the Eldorado Dust Devils, I can finally say that I officially belong to a PNW4WDA club. As of right now, my position with WOHVA (www.WOHVA.org) has been where I've invested my volunteer hours.

some of you may not like me or what you believe I stand for but at least I put my money where my mouth is. yes I know I'm rude and pushy with no class.

Please don't make this about like/dislike on a personal level. It is difficult to convey body language & tone online. I think we've always had good discussions in person...even when we've disagreed. I also always give you credit for sticking it out and always showing up for the OHV community. Even the haters have to tip their hat, to that level of personal investment :beer:

 

[Phantom 309]

Rude and pushy with no class? Hell, I like you better already, Pokey! Seriously though, if this conversation is going to continue please, drop the whole "like" thing. This isn't personal.