I dont believe it is a DNR rule per say but a adopted one at a couple of areas that seems to work well. We just this year started such a plan at Elbe but a lot fewer hours are required then at Tahuya. Still a good idea that really seems to work.
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I dont believe it is a DNR rule per say but a adopted one at a couple of areas that seems to work well. We just this year started such a plan at Elbe but a lot fewer hours are required then at Tahuya. Still a good idea that really seems to work.
Duck Dodgers
Well-Known Member
As I read the posts here I am impressed and disappointed in the mental attitudes of some. Those that throw their hissy fits and yell and swear and complain, remind me of kids. Think about that for a second. If your kids came to you and asked for something and you said no, which resulted in the kids yelling at you calling you names and throwing a big fit that included insults and threats, what would you do? Beat their asses ground them, take away privileges?
Come people wake up. Let the folks that are leading this and putting in countless hours of their own time do their jobs. Ironically the majority of the folks making the biggest stink are the one that never have picked up a shovel or pick at a work party. Or only go to meetings angry when there is something to lose. Which by then it is too late. Not to mention it makes it harder for the leadership to maintain user group credibility. There have been countless people on this and many other boards that have brought up getting active in the work side of wheeling for years and still the majority sit on tier butts and armchair quarterback day after day.
Keep in mind that we are not alone here, DNR is reading these posts. And I would bet my bottom dollar that we have WTA, Sierra Club and a few other groups that are watching this and other sites. Remember that when you spout off in a mindless child like rant.
Come people wake up. Let the folks that are leading this and putting in countless hours of their own time do their jobs. Ironically the majority of the folks making the biggest stink are the one that never have picked up a shovel or pick at a work party. Or only go to meetings angry when there is something to lose. Which by then it is too late. Not to mention it makes it harder for the leadership to maintain user group credibility. There have been countless people on this and many other boards that have brought up getting active in the work side of wheeling for years and still the majority sit on tier butts and armchair quarterback day after day.
Keep in mind that we are not alone here, DNR is reading these posts. And I would bet my bottom dollar that we have WTA, Sierra Club and a few other groups that are watching this and other sites. Remember that when you spout off in a mindless child like rant.
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The_Shocker
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The Dirtbikers ARE pissed.....
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=833689
Please read all the posts and then ask yourself what can WE as a 4X4 community do to help them? We need their help and involvement in a BIG way or we wont make it through this change happening. We need EVERYONE to be onboard for support. We need to figure out what THEY need from the trail plan to help the overall project. If we make trails for only 4X4 and basic Dirtbikes/Quads then we are alienating a BIG group that could be our allies instead!
Thanks the letter will make a diferance. It will show that the ORV users are willing to work with what they are giving us and if managed properly by the users there can be expantion in the future.
Everyone wants to know what I know and this is on the top of the list of things that will carry a lot of weight with them
Remember this is the start of an ORV park. With room for improvment all of the time by the users. I say support them and see what they come up with
Whats the alternative
The_Shocker
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Have you gotten other user groups to sign-off on your plan yet?
We can't just have the 4X4 community backing this......(IMO)
Some one needs to talk to them and explain that it is a BASIC plan that we need to sign off on. It seems that you are in that circle so can you help on that
Also some one needs to start comming up with ideas and figures of what we can do in that area. The bikes need to come up with a resomble number of what milage they would like to see for a BASIC trail mileage to start with. Same with the quads and 4x4s.
At the meeting people said that we the users need to design it so lets get data on what they want as far as mileage and then go from there. If we can present a plan, It would show that we want it and are willing to work for it
Google the area and you have the area that they were thinking about for use. and go from there. Post your ideas on what you want as far as milrage on trails. I have my ideas but what other ideas are out there in the comunity
POST YOUR IDEAS UP ON WHAT YOU WANT. WHAT IS A FARE STARTING TRAIL SYSTEM FOR ALL
They said that they wanted to build it and gave everyone the blank canvase to build from so lets start.
Don't enter in to this with the idea of lets show them a plan for 5 miles of trail and we'll up that to 10 miles later.
You need to enter it to it with a plan for a 10 mile trail being implemented in various phases identified by quarter, half, or year.
When the ORV area gets setup, you'll have X amount of trail and getting any more will likely mean giving up something else somewhere else within the trail system.
You need to enter it to it with a plan for a 10 mile trail being implemented in various phases identified by quarter, half, or year.
When the ORV area gets setup, you'll have X amount of trail and getting any more will likely mean giving up something else somewhere else within the trail system.
I'm only going to say this once because of what you said and what I read in that thread. You get pissed about it, take it offline in a PM to me please.
Getting dirtbikers to be our allies...
They first need to realize they the cause of this just as much as any user group. I keep reading about how 4WD uses destroyed "their" trails, they were never their trails, it was unmanaged land that they considered theirs. I can rattle off a few instances where dirtbikers were causing DNR and environmental problems in the name of their war against 4WD users.
Of course, they put their own trails in as well, infringing on hikers and naturalists. So they really never had any room to complain about 4WD users infringing on theirs.
The next thing that occurs, I can tell you that in Tahuya, 90% of the off trail problems I have seen have been at least started by dirtbikes and quads. Almost every high speed accident and I believe every death out there has been dirtbikes and quads. 4WD users for the most part stick to the trails far better.
So, they aren't clean and they need to realize this before addressing the class. When I look at those user groups I see a lot of "me me me" mentality and little team mentality. They need to realize their **** stinks just as much, and possibly more than the 4WD community ~ largely due to the law of percentages.
I know for myself, I have gotten so sick and tired of dealing with and hearing about dirt bikers doing things they shouldn't and collectively putting little time in volunteering, I really lack sympathy for any plight they have. I'de feel different if I could see them police their own and step up to the plate better.
I also know the 4WD has attempted to extend olive branches to that community before just to get crapped on.
That's just 8 years talking.
The_Shocker
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I'm with you on this. I have tried hard to not get emotional when replying to some f that thread where I really wanted to call BS. The fact is that we need to educate each other or we will be blaming each other and destroying our chance to do something good with what we have left of Reiter.
I ASK ANYONE POSTING OR TALKING TO DIRTBIKERS TO THINK ABOUT THIS BEFORE GETTING PISSED AND TAKING BACK TO STEP ONE WITH THEM.
All we can do is *try* to educate them as to what our sport is. Alot of people stereotype 4Wheelers just as Bikers are and it's usually negative.
And Charlie, I'm trying along with Crash to get a peaceful coexistence with the Bikers at Reiter and hopefully we will get some input to help us all soon....:awesomework:
unclestripey
Well-Known Member
I agree 100%---you draw alot more flies with sugar then ****. One thing that occurs to me, the DNR doesn't have to let people wheel on lands they manage. People seem to think that they have a right to tear around the woods on property that is state-owned. They don't. One could say that the land is publicly held, therefore it's owned by all of us, and that gives us a right to be there. Unfortunately, ORV users are a minority of the thousands of "owners" of public lands, and far more people would rather it not be open to ORV use. Does it suck? Yes. I'm just glad it seems like it's going to re-open next year(hopefully), instead of being shut down completely and permanantly.
The best way to make sure it stays open is to act with respect and get off our collective asses and volunteer the time and materials to make Reiter and other areas less of a "problem" in the eyes of the state.
mark
Well-Known Member
*I* think closing the whole area, even "temporary" was a poor decision on the DNR's part, and probably the main source of the "nasty e-mails" and childish behavior. Not to mention it was handled VERY poorly, almost feeling rushed from the reports from folks in this thread.
You can study the crap out of it while its still in use. Winter time is the WORSE time to do any "work" on it (mud, snow, rain, lots of water. Not very environmentally friendly). They could do this during the summer/dry months, and incrementally. If they need work on a specific trail, they can close LIMITED AREA's as necessary to do the work required and slowly move the ORV crowd from the area's they are used to up into the "new" area they wish us to use.
I also agree with t1h5ta3 that some of the dollar figure's being thrown around are ridiculous, and wasteful. Most of the Reiter that exists now was "built" with little to no dollars. And just think of what folks could have built if they had 1mil to lay with, but the DNR can't even build "primitive" camp sites with 1 mil (I can, bulldozer, some gravel and a couple outhouses. Use the left-over money for maintaining the outhouses and grading the road once or twice a year). Heck, look at the "primitive" camping areas folks use right now... crappy roads leading to them, uneven ground, rocks, roots, no fire pits except what you bring....... and it works and folks are happy.
Seems to me the DNR is putting TOO much thought and effort into it (or atleast throwing around numbers for too much thought). We are motorized users, we don't need the Hilton (not that that wouldn't be nice)
Thoughts from essentially and outside observer (right now) and webwheeler :booo:
OK, I had some driving around time to think about various things, then I come back and see this "invention", even better :awesomework:
And someone that is in the "group", please forward this to your local DNR or who ever partner..
I'm happy to see the DNR is atleast SAYING they want to include "US" (for clarity, 'US' is going to include all motorized ORV use). This is positive, even though with track records of government agency, especially with MANY levels of upper management and politics that are far removed from the individuals that interact with the public
booo many (and most/all should be) are skeptical.HOWEVER, as I alluded above, and others have voiced, the DNR is jumping on to this in a very poor manner that, from a public perception, is poorly planed, executed and is just begging for confusion, distrust and anger.
If *I* were in charge, this is how I would go about it:
- NO November closure. Too soon, no plan in place, the public is skeptical and scared. Studying, surveying and mapping can be done with select (and well signed) daily/weekly closures of specific areas while letting everything else remain status quo. Trail "maintenance" or work on a trail that is just doomed to be closed is a waste of resources, money and volunteer efforts. Besides, from a global point of view, one more winter of uses as the 'park' has seen for the last 20+ years isn't going to cause the earth to crack in half, and its already been noted that winter use has been down. I would blame the economy for that.
- USE the winter months to plan, survey and map, then come out with a plan of attach for the spring months. Local user group meetings and public "disclosure" meetings are good PR. Explain that the public meetings are for information only, and have representative panels from the individual concerned users groups then meet with the "mobs" to make a list of concerns and issues to be brought forth at a later, smaller "focus" meetings. Make this all transparent as well.
- From what I gather, the desire is to effectively MOVE the motorized ORV area away from many of the current trails, and reinstated them higher up. Really I have no problem with this, but this is how I would tackle that:
- BEGAN the work on the "new" upper trails. Dryer, spring and summer time is the best for this. Get the most productive work done for the man-hours and money. Winter work IMO is a waste if you have the choice.
- AS the new, upper trails open, begin transitioning people to them, migrate the people from the trails to be closed to the "new" trails, then begin the closing of the "bad" trails as new (replacement) trails are opened up.
- BUILD with all users in mind. I liked someone aboves formula of how to base (key word, BASE) trail miles on for the various users. Trails should be "open" to all users if you fit. I.E., Bikes, quads and side-by-sides can use the 4x4 trails if they want, it just needs to be made clear that they are 4x4 trails, and they get the "priority". Same with quad/UTV trails, bike can uses them (they are not excluded) but quads/UTV's get the right-of-way, Single tracks/bikes have there own, but if mountain biker's want to ride on them, bikes(motor) get the right-or-way (plus its easier for mountain bikers to hear/watch/see MC's vs the other way around.
- GO "Simple and cheap" with the "camping facilities". Primitive is the word, designated would be better. We aren't looking for a KOA, just a place generally accepted a the "camping" area and that is not in the middle of a main trail. Outhouses, shelters, fire pits/BBQ's can come later, and probably be donated by clubs/orgs. Just realized too, this should be SEPARATE from the day-use parking area. And that area needs to be pretty big, a very good number of users trailer their rigs now-a-days, even if they are "street legal".
- ALL motorized and non-motorized vehicles should be allowed on access roads. For description I'm going to call these logging roads. Make the speed limit like 25 or 35 if need be, and enforce the crap out if it (just make sure that money is designated for Reiter ORV area improvements or budget, not to be stolen for other areas or the dreaded "general fund".
- BEGAN the work on the "new" upper trails. Dryer, spring and summer time is the best for this. Get the most productive work done for the man-hours and money. Winter work IMO is a waste if you have the choice.
as an aside: a MC track and permanent rock-crawl course/area would be cool in the near future as well. Very near the parking areas. Rentable for organized events. Maybe for right now a large, flat-ish expanse designated for the future use for such things. Anything north of Olympia is severely lacking in such an arena. The current, active Gravel/Rock quarry would be a likely place. Or one of the larger clear-cut areas. But the trick would be to get something on the plan now that can be expanded later. Something like Straddleline would be a good, long-term model for this (without the ridiculous fees). Camping and parking close by a bleacher set-up over looking multi-use and specific use courses. That parking can also be used to access the ORV area via
open to all' access trails.
1 grumpy
Well-Known Member
OK, I had some driving around time to think about various things, then I come back and see this "invention", even better :awesomework:
And someone that is in the "group", please forward this to your local DNR or who ever partner..
I'm happy to see the DNR is atleast SAYING they want to include "US" (for clarity, 'US' is going to include all motorized ORV use). This is positive, even though with track records of government agency, especially with MANY levels of upper management and politics that are far removed from the individuals that interact with the public
HOWEVER, as I alluded above, and others have voiced, the DNR is jumping on to this in a very poor manner that, from a public perception, is poorly planed, executed and is just begging for confusion, distrust and anger.
If *I* were in charge, this is how I would go about it:
- NO November closure. Too soon, no plan in place, the public is skeptical and scared. Studying, surveying and mapping can be done with select (and well signed) daily/weekly closures of specific areas while letting everything else remain status quo. Trail "maintenance" or work on a trail that is just doomed to be closed is a waste of resources, money and volunteer efforts. Besides, from a global point of view, one more winter of uses as the 'park' has seen for the last 20+ years isn't going to cause the earth to crack in half, and its already been noted that winter use has been down. I would blame the economy for that.
- USE the winter months to plan, survey and map, then come out with a plan of attach for the spring months. Local user group meetings and public "disclosure" meetings are good PR. Explain that the public meetings are for information only, and have representative panels from the individual concerned users groups then meet with the "mobs" to make a list of concerns and issues to be brought forth at a later, smaller "focus" meetings. Make this all transparent as well.
- From what I gather, the desire is to effectively MOVE the motorized ORV area away from many of the current trails, and reinstated them higher up. Really I have no problem with this, but this is how I would tackle that:
- BEGAN the work on the "new" upper trails. Dryer, spring and summer time is the best for this. Get the most productive work done for the man-hours and money. Winter work IMO is a waste if you have the choice.
- AS the new, upper trails open, begin transitioning people to them, migrate the people from the trails to be closed to the "new" trails, then begin the closing of the "bad" trails as new (replacement) trails are opened up.
- BUILD with all users in mind. I liked someone aboves formula of how to base (key word, BASE) trail miles on for the various users. Trails should be "open" to all users if you fit. I.E., Bikes, quads and side-by-sides can use the 4x4 trails if they want, it just needs to be made clear that they are 4x4 trails, and they get the "priority". Same with quad/UTV trails, bike can uses them (they are not excluded) but quads/UTV's get the right-of-way, Single tracks/bikes have there own, but if mountain biker's want to ride on them, bikes(motor) get the right-or-way (plus its easier for mountain bikers to hear/watch/see MC's vs the other way around.
- GO "Simple and cheap" with the "camping facilities". Primitive is the word, designated would be better. We aren't looking for a KOA, just a place generally accepted a the "camping" area and that is not in the middle of a main trail. Outhouses, shelters, fire pits/BBQ's can come later, and probably be donated by clubs/orgs. Just realized too, this should be SEPARATE from the day-use parking area. And that area needs to be pretty big, a very good number of users trailer their rigs now-a-days, even if they are "street legal".
- ALL motorized and non-motorized vehicles should be allowed on access roads. For description I'm going to call these logging roads. Make the speed limit like 25 or 35 if need be, and enforce the crap out if it (just make sure that money is designated for Reiter ORV area improvements or budget, not to be stolen for other areas or the dreaded "general fund".
as an aside: a MC track and permanent rock-crawl course/area would be cool in the near future as well. Very near the parking areas. Rentable for organized events. Maybe for right now a large, flat-ish expanse designated for the future use for such things. Anything north of Olympia is severely lacking in such an arena. The current, active Gravel/Rock quarry would be a likely place. Or one of the larger clear-cut areas. But the trick would be to get something on the plan now that can be expanded later. Something like Straddleline would be a good, long-term model for this (without the ridiculous fees). Camping and parking close by a bleacher set-up over looking multi-use and specific use courses. That parking can also be used to access the ORV area via
open to all' access trails.
Yes finally this plan makes the most sence.I for one can not see much work being done in the winter months sure well get some work done but the day's are getting shorter and shorter. Where as the spring and summer months are longer meaning the work parties can stay out later be more productive.
1 grumpy
Well-Known Member
plus we as a group don't even know where the trails are going too be made.I for one am planning on being more into helping too keep reiter going with volanteering my time. I have been lacking on helping out do to physical limitations of late but I'll be there now too help any way I can....
The_Shocker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 566
OK, I had some driving around time to think about various things, then I come back and see this "invention", even better :awesomework:
And someone that is in the "group", please forward this to your local DNR or who ever partner..
I'm happy to see the DNR is atleast SAYING they want to include "US" (for clarity, 'US' is going to include all motorized ORV use). This is positive, even though with track records of government agency, especially with MANY levels of upper management and politics that are far removed from the individuals that interact with the public
HOWEVER, as I alluded above, and others have voiced, the DNR is jumping on to this in a very poor manner that, from a public perception, is poorly planed, executed and is just begging for confusion, distrust and anger.
If *I* were in charge, this is how I would go about it:
- NO November closure. Too soon, no plan in place, the public is skeptical and scared. Studying, surveying and mapping can be done with select (and well signed) daily/weekly closures of specific areas while letting everything else remain status quo. Trail "maintenance" or work on a trail that is just doomed to be closed is a waste of resources, money and volunteer efforts. Besides, from a global point of view, one more winter of uses as the 'park' has seen for the last 20+ years isn't going to cause the earth to crack in half, and its already been noted that winter use has been down. I would blame the economy for that.
- USE the winter months to plan, survey and map, then come out with a plan of attach for the spring months. Local user group meetings and public "disclosure" meetings are good PR. Explain that the public meetings are for information only, and have representative panels from the individual concerned users groups then meet with the "mobs" to make a list of concerns and issues to be brought forth at a later, smaller "focus" meetings. Make this all transparent as well.
- From what I gather, the desire is to effectively MOVE the motorized ORV area away from many of the current trails, and reinstated them higher up. Really I have no problem with this, but this is how I would tackle that:
- BEGAN the work on the "new" upper trails. Dryer, spring and summer time is the best for this. Get the most productive work done for the man-hours and money. Winter work IMO is a waste if you have the choice.
- AS the new, upper trails open, begin transitioning people to them, migrate the people from the trails to be closed to the "new" trails, then begin the closing of the "bad" trails as new (replacement) trails are opened up.
- BUILD with all users in mind. I liked someone aboves formula of how to base (key word, BASE) trail miles on for the various users. Trails should be "open" to all users if you fit. I.E., Bikes, quads and side-by-sides can use the 4x4 trails if they want, it just needs to be made clear that they are 4x4 trails, and they get the "priority". Same with quad/UTV trails, bike can uses them (they are not excluded) but quads/UTV's get the right-of-way, Single tracks/bikes have there own, but if mountain biker's want to ride on them, bikes(motor) get the right-or-way (plus its easier for mountain bikers to hear/watch/see MC's vs the other way around.
- GO "Simple and cheap" with the "camping facilities". Primitive is the word, designated would be better. We aren't looking for a KOA, just a place generally accepted a the "camping" area and that is not in the middle of a main trail. Outhouses, shelters, fire pits/BBQ's can come later, and probably be donated by clubs/orgs. Just realized too, this should be SEPARATE from the day-use parking area. And that area needs to be pretty big, a very good number of users trailer their rigs now-a-days, even if they are "street legal".
- ALL motorized and non-motorized vehicles should be allowed on access roads. For description I'm going to call these logging roads. Make the speed limit like 25 or 35 if need be, and enforce the crap out if it (just make sure that money is designated for Reiter ORV area improvements or budget, not to be stolen for other areas or the dreaded "general fund".
as an aside: a MC track and permanent rock-crawl course/area would be cool in the near future as well. Very near the parking areas. Rentable for organized events. Maybe for right now a large, flat-ish expanse designated for the future use for such things. Anything north of Olympia is severely lacking in such an arena. The current, active Gravel/Rock quarry would be a likely place. Or one of the larger clear-cut areas. But the trick would be to get something on the plan now that can be expanded later. Something like Straddleline would be a good, long-term model for this (without the ridiculous fees). Camping and parking close by a bleacher set-up over looking multi-use and specific use courses. That parking can also be used to access the ORV area via
open to all' access trails.
There has been a guy (who used to have MXGP tracks behind Monroe Prison where the CORE challenge is held) that has been trying to open a MX track in Snohomish County but everywhere he goes he gets shut down by government or neighbors. To have something like Straddleline up there might be a pretty tall order around here. :booo:
Binder
Well-Known Member
crash2
-Oh no I picked a side-
Its a shame--so many want to get involved "after" the fact rather than working along the way up to this point
Some great things have been said in the thread along with good info. But remember we need to look like a bunch of users and not a bunch of stupid hillbillies.
As for what the DNR has done as being "right" or "not right". Some can take up that battle if they choose to fight it. Myself I am going forward with what the DNR has put on the table(now granted all plates have not been place but very soon) and what will be put on the table.
So you have to ask yourself--do you want to be a part of it and have your input count? We will be discussing these matters alot at RTW since the DNR will be coming to us and looking for assistance.
Some great things have been said in the thread along with good info. But remember we need to look like a bunch of users and not a bunch of stupid hillbillies.
As for what the DNR has done as being "right" or "not right". Some can take up that battle if they choose to fight it. Myself I am going forward with what the DNR has put on the table(now granted all plates have not been place but very soon) and what will be put on the table.
So you have to ask yourself--do you want to be a part of it and have your input count? We will be discussing these matters alot at RTW since the DNR will be coming to us and looking for assistance.
crash2
-Oh no I picked a side-
You are assuming the consultant won't take user input. My guess is they will.
crash2
-Oh no I picked a side-
Bikers
As for the single track guys(bikers). I have spent alot of time over on there forum talking with them but its not an easy battle. With them its not easy because they are alot more heated due to a number of reasons. But I am working on an aliance with them and RTW to hopefully help better all our needs in the new area.
As for the single track guys(bikers). I have spent alot of time over on there forum talking with them but its not an easy battle. With them its not easy because they are alot more heated due to a number of reasons. But I am working on an aliance with them and RTW to hopefully help better all our needs in the new area.
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