Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

I'm expecting a delivery of 2 FJ60 front axles for a future project any day now. I've been scouring the internet for info and finding that is is very scattered / not centralized. IE, there is no Toyota axle bible like there is a d60. I was hoping someone might fill me in / bring me up to snuff.

For instance, people have said I should put FJ80 balls on these axles so that I can run the bigger joint. But I plan to run RCV's or equivalents and every break I have seen of Longfields has been the shaft, not the joint. And 80 shafts are the same dia. as 60. So what's the point of having a stronger joint if the shaft is still the weak point? Or am I wrong about this generalization? Especially considering that aftermarket FJ80 knuckles from Hellfire are $1000/pair vs. Six Shooter FJ60 knuckles at $300/pr. And FJ80 donor housings to get balls off of are few and far between and expensive.

I understand that Longfield is now owned by Trail Gear? But RCV was the ones making Longfields all along? And now you can buy from RCV but Trail Gear is revamping the design or something? What is the end result of all that drama?

Do people plate stock knuckles on Toyotas like some people do with D60's? Are 80 knuckles as prone to failure as the 40/60/mini knuckles are?

Got any other info I should know?

Rokcrler · Jul 6, 2014

Dont do it!
Go tons or 609.... i learned my lesson with Toy axles :****:

TBItoy · Jul 6, 2014

Re: Re: Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

Toyota knuckles themselves arent prone to failure per se, more like when you put a high steer arm, hydro steering, and big tires on them, the stock 4 bolt steering arm arrangement tends to fail

Build some arms like this and you won't have to worry about steering or knuckle problems

I like yota axles, just have to respect the limitations.

The fj60 axles will help/solve the ring gear problems that most have.

Did you get 2 fronts?

Oh, and buy RCVs now, either direct or through a dealer.

muddinmetal · Jul 6, 2014

Pound for pound Yota axles are the toughest on the planet, but their limits are well documented. Chromoly Mini truck axles will not survive with 150-200 hp and 37 inch stickies. No mater how careful you are. The limit for 24 spline 80 series chromos is 130hp & 40 inch stickies. The very rare 30/30 fj/fzj80 chromos *may* survive 42 inch stickies with 90hp and absolutely perfect conditions, but that is the absolute limit of the shafts. You still have weak housings, knuckles, and hardware that also have to be up to the challange. Fj60s are probably the pick of the litter in those places, but don't expect it to survive with any real horsepower

grcthird · Jul 6, 2014

What are you putting them under? Tire size? I beat the snot out of mine when I had my truck running 36's and never had a failure outside of hub studs (I blame Hagan for that :flipoff1:

) They will live with low horsepower, good driving habits and higher gear ratios.

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

grcthird said:
What are you putting them under? Tire size? I beat the snot out of mine when I had my truck running 36's and never had a failure outside of hub studs (I blame Hagan for that ) They will live with low horsepower, good driving habits and higher gear ratios.

I'd prefer to keep that a secret for now so as not to taint people's opinions. This isn't a "Will it break thread." Its a "Tell me all the common knowledge that I've been ignoring for years," thread.

I've seen a lot of positive opinions from people who claim to beat on them over long periods of time with 37-40" stickies. Muddinmetal's post is probably the most negative I've seen yet. But there are some things that don't make sense to me in it. Such as all Toyota outers being the same with the exception of 80 series. So why would one be stronger than the other? There's the 9.5" center, the LP8" center, and the HP8" center. Obviously there's strength differences there. But once you truss a housing I would think all the housings are about the same? I know Muddinmetal is a Yota guy so I'm just trying to understand.

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

BTW, I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum. I meant for it to go in the Tech section. If a mod wants to move it feel free.

Neal3000 · Jul 6, 2014

They seem to hold up well under lightweight honda buggies, which i assume is what your planning.

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

Neal3000 said:
They seem to hold up well under lightweight honda buggies, which i assume is what your planning.

It will be as light or lighter than one. But I don't want people to say, "Oh, well then they'll be fine," or "Well run 47's then!" I just want unbiased info to base my own judgments on. What are the weak links, what do people do to address them, etc.

I would really like to know if its the joint or shaft that blows most of the time with 30-spline RCV's / longs.

TBItoy · Jul 6, 2014

Re: Re: Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

The old Fj40 knuckles had smaller steering studs, and stuff... Otherwise there is the "small knuckles" fj60/mini truck/etc, and the fj80 abs and non-abs knuckles (abs are bigger/stronger castings of the 2)

As for joint/shaft failures, in my experience the joint usually fails first.

Except on fj80s... The inner shaft at the birf breaks, because it's 24 coarse spline

muddinmetal · Jul 6, 2014

patooyee said:
I'd prefer to keep that a secret for now so as not to taint people's opinions. This isn't a "Will it break thread." Its a "Tell me all the common knowledge that I've been ignoring for years," thread.

I've seen a lot of positive opinions from people who claim to beat on them over long periods of time with 37-40" stickies. Muddinmetal's post is probably the most negative I've seen yet. But there are some things that don't make sense to me in it. Such as all Toyota outers being the same with the exception of 80 series. So why would one be stronger than the other? There's the 9.5" center, the LP8" center, and the HP8" center. Obviously there's strength differences there. But once you truss a housing I would think all the housings are about the same? I know Muddinmetal is a Yota guy so I'm just trying to understand.

Not really a yota guy, but I have owned a mini truck and an 80 series. I didn't intend it to be negative, as I stated, they are the strongest axles on earth for their weight. I was trying to post about the real life limitarions I have seen on the trails. It does seem like some never break, but some break constantly once they break the first time. I suspect tweaked housings to be the issue with those. Although, as a testament to the strength in some minitruck fronts, there is one very capable hill killer with 300hp and 42 aetna tsls runnings one with amazing results.... But then again, Chad can break his at will with a stockish 4.3 and 37s :dunno:

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

muddinmetal said:
there is one very capable hill killer with 300hp and 42 aetna tsls runnings one with amazing results....

Who is that???

I didn't mean to call you out or anything. I value the input. I knew there would be extremes on both ends.

My brother used to beat the ever loving **** out of his 27-spline Longs. He stripped out 4 r&p's in a 3000lbs buggy with stock 22R, dual cases, and 36's but never had an axle or joint issue. And when i say ever loving ****, I mean it. His engine was either floating valves or idling. He made a lot of big power and tire ribs look foolish with that rig.

muddinmetal · Jul 6, 2014

patooyee said:
Who is that???

I didn't mean to call you out or anything. I value the input. I knew there would be extremes on both ends.

My brother used to beat the ever loving **** out of his 27-spline Longs. He stripped out 4 r&p's in a 3000lbs buggy with stock 22R, dual cases, and 36's but never had an axle or joint issue. And when i say ever loving ****, I mean it. His engine was either floating valves or idling. He made a lot of big power and tire ribs look foolish with that rig.

Youtube Matt Elder. Zayne owns this buggy now, and I am so jealous.

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

muddinmetal said:
Youtube Matt Elder. Zayne owns this buggy now, and I am so jealous.

Ah, yes, I recognize the buggy now. I like that rig.

TBItoy · Jul 6, 2014

Re: Re: Re: Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

patooyee said:
Ah, yes, I recognize the buggy now. I like that rig.

I think the rear engine helps a lot with that one... Yota axles hate weight.

Most of the people that break them "all the time" are in v6 powered full body rigs...

patooyee · Jul 6, 2014

Re: Re: Re: Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

TBItoy said:
I think the rear engine helps a lot with that one... Yota axles hate weight.

Most of the people that break them "all the time" are in v6 powered full body rigs...

My personal observations have leaned that way on both of those statements. Also seems like leaf sprung rigs are hard on them as a result of wheel hop. And since so many Toyota rigs keep the leafs ...

TBItoy · Jul 6, 2014

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Someone bring me up to snuff on Toyota axles

patooyee said:
My personal observations have leaned that way on both of those statements. Also seems like leaf sprung rigs are hard on them as a result of wheel hop. And since so many Toyota rigs keep the leafs ...

Good point also.

The wheel hop seems to "degrade" the axles as a whole faster than a linked rig ie more chipped gear teeth, clicking/cracked birfs leading to stripped splines, twisted and broken rear shafts....

Where as my linked rigs suffered catastrophic failure, completly blown gears, exploded birfs, blown diffs, etc...

billstoy · Jul 6, 2014

Hey Nick sent you a PM with e-locker ? looking at a 2000 limited 4runner e-locker for my single seat buggy? what do you'll think?

Rjhoward32006 · Jul 6, 2014

My sami was full bodied exo caged and three linked front and rear, full hydro, cut 38 tsl's. Once i went to 30 spline longs and 6 shooter knuckles never had a failure. i think the main reasons these axles break are do to weight and set-up. i ran 4:88's had more pinion teeth than 5.29's but less than 4.10's.
I had to make the throw of the steering less than the knuckles, etc.. etc... that kinda thing

My .02 cents is if your worried about breaking a fj60 already. why not just go bigger to give yourself peace of mind and not have to orry constantly.
I would say under a semi low powered light weight buggy a fj60 axle with rcv's set up right will ball gussets,armor,trusses,etc would be more than enough beef to handle it.

clemsonjeep · Jul 7, 2014

Run em! I know these days that everyone says "go with tons" but if you'll look back a few years you'll notice that the guys running some of the craziest trails out west were still running truggy style yotas with 40+ tires on trails with insane traction and crazy holes. Like several people have already said though...you do have to know the limits and just not drive like an idiot.

With that said...if you want to go out...line up...and PUNCH IT to see what happens then you should probably look at some beefier housings and such.

My rig is running a motor with sub 100hp on 39.5's...not stickies...and I feel like I've beaten on my yotas pretty hard over the last several years and haven't had a failure yet. On the front axle I'm running a high pinion 3rd which improves ring and pinion strength along with an ARB which is probably the toughest locker on the market. On the steering ends I'm still running the 4 stud high steer arms, but with the trunion bearing eliminators. Of course it has 30 spline Longs with the chromoly hub gears as well. Since I didn't plan on driving mine on the street I also had Bobby Long cryo and heat treat the R&P's front and rear.

The rear axle is an IFS housing with the TG 4 link "truss". It's running stock shafts through a factory E-Locker out of a '98 4Runner. When I sent my R&P's to Bobby I also had him treat the side gears and lock collar from the E-Locker since those were the "weak" parts of the locker. Again...no problems.

I believe my rig weighs in at around 2500-2700 by itself...just for reference.