The bad karma buggy

[mashyermotor]

Re: Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

All I've seen is a tranny mount that looks like crap and some shocks that need to be turned around. Anything else?

As stated in a prior post ... the shocks couldn't just be turned around. Haley fixed the front shock tabs and moved the shocks to a proper location but as you can see they were hitting more than the schrader valves that had to be replaced

 

[bbone]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

few things Ive learned and been taught by others:

-pick a builder you can drive to, at any notice, to their shop to check in on things.
-if you talk on the phone or in person, type out the conversation and email to them and you so you recap what the plan is.
-most of the build should be cut and dry when it comes to price/hour rate. The grey area should be discussed and planned for accordingly
-communicate communicate communicate...you cannot plan enough..the builder will let you know if your annoying..


Really hate to see this...hope it all works out..

 

[Neal3000]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

It makes me sick that a guy working two jobs to pay for his hobby would get burned and treated like this by anyone but especially a big name fab shop. And then he has the fawking gall to come after you for more money?....unbelievable. i have to just say that you are taking this all amazingly well.

 

[SHELBS44]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

It makes me sick that a guy working two jobs to pay for his hobby would get burned and treated like this by anyone but especially a big name fab shop. And then he has the fawking gall to come after you for more money?....unbelievable. i have to just say that you are taking this all amazingly well.

I agree. I would have already lost my cool. Props to you that you haven't! I will say I didn't know you lived in t-town ever need an extra hand working on it give me a shout! I live in northport/coker area

 

[rocfun]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

All I've seen is a tranny mount that looks like crap and some shocks that need to be turned around. Anything else?

You don't want to show the labor rate because its very low. Probably lower than anyone else, that's why you went with this builder. You get what you pay for. That's the way things are. This reminds me of all the threads about FOA shocks.


I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be held responsible but you are at fault also. If you felt like he was ripping you off you you should have stopped. Stopped paying. Stopped everything. Instead you went against your better judgment cause you had "race day" blinders on.


I'd chock it as an L and keep it movin. As should he.

Have heard this before and this is a load of crap. As if he deserves it because the builder said he would help him out on the price that some how Johnathan should have expected or somehow deserved this level of workmanship. Are u serious? How about this. Building a rig is building a rig. Some have more bells and whistles and higher end than others, but one thing should be consistant no matter what, that is the the quality and safety of it.
Last i checked he asked for a bare metal roller where everything cleared and and built for the parts he had. He wasn't asking for a World of Wheels show car rock bouncer.
Thats what gets at me like nothing else, "someone didnt pay enough so they shouldn't be pissed" when what was ageeed upon was not done.

 

[TBItoy]

Re:

Fact is CSC shouldn't have volunteered labor if they were just going to try to upsell a guy that made it clear that he didn't have the extra money to spend.

The blaming the "new guy" fabricator is bullshit. If it goes out your door, you are responsible for it.

 

[bdillon2372]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

Since you asked for opinions here's mine. You and the builder should both walk away from this deal and pretend it never happened. I've got more opinion I could throw in but it's not important. I'm too busy SMH at the whole deal :****:

This^^^I think I read somewhere here that Bug-EJ suggested this??? Maybe I'm wrong....

 

[KPatterson]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

Glad CSC didn't return my email last year when I was shopping around for builders :****:

 

[zukimaster]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

If it were me, I would just mash my motor!

 

[creepycrawly]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

few things Ive learned and been taught by others:

-pick a builder you can drive to, at any notice, to their shop to check in on things.
-if you talk on the phone or in person, type out the conversation and email to them and you so you recap what the plan is.
-most of the build should be cut and dry when it comes to price/hour rate. The grey area should be discussed and planned for accordingly
-communicate communicate communicate...you cannot plan enough..the builder will let you know if your annoying..


Really hate to see this...hope it all works out..

Having been in a very similar situation with a builder that took WAAAAAYYYYYY too long because I was several hours away, I would say this advice should be in a sticky labeled "So, you want to have a buggy built?"

With that being said, I would add...pay as you go and stroke checks as you inspect progress. I learned that one the hard way as well.

BUT....lets not lose sight of the fact that Jonathan was 100% prepared to walk away from the deal without putting this stuff in writing. It seems to me CSC didn't give him that option. I have met both parties...and both treated me well and seemed like nice folks.

I personally, after having seen the problems with the buggy both in person and on here, would not pay any more money without a judge entering a judgment to do so. Furthermore, there is a lesson to be learned for both parties. CSC fab should not let a buggy leave the joint without being paid in full. Jonathan...well, I think the above advice covers the lesson to be learned there.

I totally understand why he isn't willing to take the buggy back and let them make it right. He is afraid the price will change and it will go over a hard limit without approval. If that happened, AND CSC made note of the aforementioned lesson to be learned, Jonathan would be stuck with a bill he didn't authorize and no buggy until such time as he could pay said bill. That seems like a lose-lose to me. Hope you fellas work it out.

A parting pearl of wisdom: Good, Cheap, fast. Pick two.

 

[CSCFab]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

Instead of starting from the end, I think it's only best to begin to state the facts from the beginning. I was approached by Jonathan to build him a chassis ONLY. He wanted a 'good deal', cheap, 'friend-discount', whatever you want to call it. He proposed to 'advertise' for CSC Fab if I would cut him a deal. The plan was for CSC to build a chassis & then another shop was going to 'help him out' and finish the buggy. As time went along on the build, the other shop was busy, so we were asked to go to a roller stage, then we were asked to finish the interior, and then to finish it to almost complete with Johnathan to only have to finish the wire and plumb and final tear down for paint/powdercoat. From the 1st time Jonathan called me with concerns/issues/whatever, I OFFERED TO FIX IT FOR FREE. F. R. E. E. I even offered to PICK IT UP AND DELIVER IT FOR FREE, that means no labor cost to him. The issue was he didn't want to pay what he already owed me. Point blank.

(I have copy and pasted replies in Italics)

"I have asked Labron at CSC Fab nicely to not contact me and to just forget I exist on more than one occasion."

I was told to my face that "I would rather lose a friendship over it than to have to pay for it." I'm pretty sure if you buy a new or USED car/auto/RZR/ etc from ANYWHERE and it doesn't run right, or has a recall, or an issue that when you tell said place you purchased you will not be paying your balance, you DON'T get to keep it, drive it, race it, and have NO repercussions. You HAVE to take it back to the dealer to let them repair the issues. How is this any different?

"This morning my wife told me I received an E-mail stating I now owe him a little over 4500$ with the intrest from the last bill he sent me over a year ago. I told him at Grayrock if he did not calmly walk away and drop this I would go public on the situation and let the people decide. I told him he had my cell# my wifes cell # and my email that he could have the lawyer he was threatining me with contact me or do not contact me. He knows I would sell everything I had to pay him if a court of my peers decided that was what was needed. I cannot tell anyone what the original bill should have been because I have recieved 3 since I picked my "buggy" up."

Jonathan knew the bill before he arrived to the shop, he was aware of the balance BEFORE he left. I have signed paperwork HE AGREED to ALL charges. WITH EVEN A PROMISE TO PAY when he got his income taxes in. Whether he got 1 bill or 3, he KNEW. THERE WERE NO SURPRISES. I have software that automatically adds interest and sends a bill. Once again, he wanted something for nothing.

"When I pointed out the things that were on my bill that I did not receive or had a problem with he kept changing the bill and taking things off but kept managing to come out with the same total every time."

Not true. Sorry. With PAPER and NUMBERS, it's easy to compare.

"One night I got on here and got to noticing ... (remark removed by Admin). Thats when I called him and told him as big of a pos he had sold me and as far over the budget he went he wouldn't get his last 1700ish dollars."

Again, not true, was never told that. Read what I was told above.

" Again this is not a bash thread and I WILL NOT ASK FOR HELP OR NAME DROP ANYONE!"

Really? Um...

"Ok I have terrible memory but here goes the pre buggy build."

????? Yet you seem to conveniently remember some (very specific) conversations that did or did not happen. Weird.

"Very nice guy with a nice son whom offered to build me a chassis to race for cost or material."

I NEVER said material cost only. From the beginning I quoted him $3250 for a CHASSIS only. That never changed on my end.

"Well the first few red flags came when I dropped my parts off."

I'm sorry but once again, all the facts are NOT on the table. It could have been a buggy that were trying for SALE (for no profit on our end) for a customer. Or it could have been the buggy we were keeping for a customer until he decided what direction he wanted to go. SO many different reasons EXCEPT the ones that were speculated before. This was the first time that we have ever had a customer STOP paying because he couldn't afford it. And the first (and only) time someone STILL owes us $$.

"Well originally the first trip I made was to drop motor, trans, and tcases to have a chassis built with interior."

A chassis for $3250 does NOT include interior.

" Labron looked at the doubler and told me there was no way he could use that in a buggy he couldn't make the driveshafts work. Instead of saying you are starting from scratch this is what I have I let the doublers go for a little over 600 bucks and went on the lookout for a lomax or an atlas"

Jonathan brought the doubler from his old buggy & wanted to reuse it, I recommended that if he was going to race he should go a different route. It is too heavy and unnecessary for racing. I told him he would be better going with a straight 205. He said he would study on it and days later he called me to inform me there was an Atlas on the way from another shop. They sent the wrong adapter and I was told to drill it, weld it, WHATEVER to make it work.

"I left wondering why everyone did such a nice guy like they did and convinced I had to immediatly go 3k over my budget on a tcase I dind't want. On the way home I got with the offroad shop that would be supplying parts and ordered seats, A SEAT SLIDER, and a few tabs. I told Labron I would supply EVERYTHING needed for this build so I could wheel and deal and get the most for my money. I told him I did not want him to use a tab or bolt so I would not have to pay mark up AND HE AGREED. At this point a I had an odd feeling but he measured me and my wife and sent us on our way."

It was his choice to purchase an ATLAS, just a recommendation from me. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Jonathan DID bring TABS cut out of .250 that were not usable with my chassis. I cut new ones out of 3/8s to replace his AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. The tabs he was charged for were ONLY the tabs he did not supply.

"Like I said this is not a bash thread everyone wanted a build thread. He offered to come get it and told me he had some dumbass working for him that butchered the buggy up and he didn't know. He never once asked me what was wrong or why I was upset or anything. Its always been about $."

IF this isn't a bash thread, I would hate to read one. Geesh. I DID have someone working for me who was screwing me over and I didn't realize it at the time. I TOOK CREDIT FOR THAT. STILL DO. I HAVE OFFERED TO FIX EVERYTHING HE BOTCHED FOR FREE! No excuses. Said employee is LONG gone.

"IF YOU WANT ME TO RACE A CSC BUGGY YOU DO IT THE CHEAPEST EASIEST QUICKEST WAY YOU CAN. I DON"T GIVE A **** IF YOU STICK WELD IT AND SHOOT SHEET METAL SCREWS IN THE FLOOR."

In other words, you want it QUICK and CHEAP and for us cut all corners we can. But then you decide to not pay because we cut corners and it isn't good enough?

"I ASK WHY I AM PAYING ALL THIS LABOR AND MATERIAL WHEN WE AGREED ON CHASSIS FOR COST OF MATERIAL. I am told well we did some things different and you have decided to go farther than original plans so don't worry it will work out in the end."

Here is proof that ANYTIME a charge was added to bill, he could and DID look at it. No surprises. This is a new program we use. I KNOW when a bill is viewed. There is even a DISPUTE button in case something was wrong on the bill. He was one of the 1st that we used this software on. Since he was wishy-washy on how far we wanted to go on the build, my wife had entered his LABOR charge as a turnkey, since we were going to go past a roller. That was a mistake that was FIXED on his final bill.



"There were some parts issues like always and a few other things but its a roller come check it out! I get there and there is no seats mounted and no pedals. He throws the seat in and I hope in. Yeah man seems ok as long as you MOUNT THE PEDALS TO THE FLOOR STICKING UP, I WANT BIG NASTY HEADERS, MY WIFE HAS TO BE ABLE TO DRIVE IT, AND I WANT CUP HOLDERS. Outside of those things do whatever is cheapest."

If you take a buggy to roller stage, there are no seats mounted yet....

"ok so I get another bill and it just so happens to be almost exactly the amount of the receipt I showed him of what I had in my savings/retirement. (I know dumb on my part). I SAY LOOK AT THIS POINT I AM SPENT. LETS WRAP IT UP AND SEE WHAT I CAN COME UP WITH."

"so a few days go by and I get a phone call. I am told MAN I KNOW IT IS GONNA PUT YOU A LITTLE OVER BUDGET BUT I CAN DO YOUR FUEL CELL PLUMBING AND RADIATOR AND IT WILL BE AN ALMOST FINISHED BUGGY FOR 11K IF YOU CAN COME UP WITH IT. I SAY OK BUT IF IT GOES A PENNY MORE OVER YOU ARE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO GET IT. I LITERALLY HAVE NOTHING ELSE. I DON'T HAVE A 401K OR ANYTHING. I CAN PROBABLY COME UP WITH THAT MUCH BUT OUTSIDE OF THAT I WILL HAVE TO SELL THE BUGGY."

Isn't 401K A retirement?
$11K was labor, not including PARTS that came out of my pocket. Almost $4500 worth.

"WELL HE GETS ME TO SIGN SOME PAPER STATING I GOT ALL MY STUFF AND WE ARE THROUGH THEN HANDS ME A BILL FOR A TURNKEY BUGGY FOR ANOTHER COUPLE THOUSAND MORE THAN WHEN I TOLD HIM STOP INCLUDING 700$ WORTH OF CUSTOM STAINLESS EXHAUST AND ALL THE BOLTS. What he didn't know at the time I had the original 2k more he said I needed in my pocket. I folded the newest bill up and stuck it in my pocket with the cash."

Interesting, He had the cash to pay but told me he would pay me when he got his income taxes back, "they should be in any day." Remember the picture above of the bill that he had already viewed... (numerous times)

"HE (I will use he, him, or labron even though he told me he never did any work on the buggy so none of it was his fault) managed to press the front internals of the atlas together when installing it. So before the tires ever touched my garage the atlas had to be removed and dissasembled"

Remember when Jonathan told me do whatever you have to do.. (for free) and the fastest.. quickest way possible ? And I built the chassis myself. But I did not do the final assembly.. Jonathan did. He wanted quick.. picked up in boxes, explained why below.

"Then the bolts he sent were not anything near the size or strength needed."

I only sent moch up grade 5 bolts. Jonathan said he wanted to supply his own. He was not charged.

"It was obvious the front driveshaft would have some issues but I figured I could limit it and get by on at least 2 race hills."

Issues like hitting and slamming around as you stated before?

"Well upon further inspection the cable shifters were never installed or the person doing it would have noticed they dont clear the floor."

Cable shifters are adjusted upon final assembly. We did not assemble it.

"Well nothing to do about it now onto the front. Put the shocks on and damn why wont the springs go on straight. **** me the shock tabs on the chassis and on the axle are so crooked the springs wont even sit on the seats on the bottom of the coilover."

Refer to Jonathan's picture in reply #27 of this thread for front shock tabs and picture in reply #28 for rear. 'Nuff said

"SO I CALL LABBRON AND MENTION A FEW CLEARANCE ISUES. I AM TOLD IT IS ALL MY FAULT THAT I AM NOT INSTALLING THE PARTS PROPLERLY. "

During final assembly we always measure the axles to the chassis to make sure they are squared up with wheelbase measurement and cross measurements to make sure the axles are centered up to the chassis. I told him it was possible he had the front end off centered to the drivers side which could cause a clearance issue.

"Whatever I let it be and tell him since I told him I would pay him after first race I will do the best I can. Buggy still hasnt ran but its getting to crunch time."

I remember him telling me he could not pay me until he had to stop putting $$ back into it. Then I find out he takes it to a shop to have the motor tuned. Whether that was another one of his freebies, I don't know.

"I start looking for my belly pan and fluids I sent. Well none of that stuff came back with me and the belly wasn't on the bill so I had to start hunting material."

I offered him a aluminum skid plate for cost of material only and I was told that he had a place close to him that was going to give him a better deal, so I was to not worry with it. As far as his fluids go, they were left here and are still setting on the shelf. We don't use Honda fluids in our builds, hence another freebie, no doubt.

"I still needed to find the sight tube on the back of the atlas also so I called back. He told me that an atlas didn't come with one when you bought them new so that was another part to add to the list."

He supplied Atlas. Look at 2nd picture on reply # 28 at the Atlas. Transfer case did not have a sight tube when it arrived.

"It ran like ****, it was 100%untested, missing bolts where it shouldn't be, shocks untuned, the first time I stepped in it I bent the trans cooler under the floor so that had to be fixed at the race, and I didnt have time to get the belly on it but it was on the trailer headed to Missouri. Well Friday night after we get there I decided lets at least hit a few hills. Second hill the driveshaft hits the link mount in the front, rips the trans mount off the bottom of the chassis (THE TRANS MOUNT BEING A SMALL PEICE OF ANGLE IRON THAT WAS TACK WELDED IN) and breaks my trans in 3 peices."

This is why you need a skid plate before you race... His buggy was in boxes when he picked up b/c we took it apart to weld everything out. HE TOLD ME TO NOT PUT IT TOGETHER B/C HE HAD TO TAKE IT APART AGAIN TO PAINT IT. Having him pick it up like that was his idea. He only wanted it to be able to roll onto his trailer. Jonathan picked up a roller +, I did NOTHING with the motor & how it ran. We don't tune shocks until a buggy is driveable, I was told his other shop was tuning the shocks. 1st I've heard of the trans cooler bending. The trans mount was not just tacked, it was a complete weld. I was told by a few witness' that he was climbing hills he had no business climbing without a skid plate. I tried repeatedly to talk to him THAT weekend DURING the race, he would not answer my calls. Granted, service is bad in that area. When I finally spoke with him, he said there was a clearance issue and drive shaft was hitting the link bar tab. Made me wonder how a CHEAP driveshaft would hold up and not buckle and the transfer case would RIP out. I asked if he had hit a rock HARD without a skid plate and he avoided my question.

"decide to let Labron know at this point he wont be seeing that couple of grand over since the buggy was obviously thrown together in a few weeks, never fully assembled, and the suspension was obviously never cylcled."

You wanted quick? Cheap? Fast? But the suspension was cycled.

"have still yet to fix the seat slider and interior I don't fit into."

HIs other shop built the seat slider but it did not fit the seats he supplied. We modified it the best we could.

As far as I knew, Jonathan had CSC on the side of his buggy was satisfied enough.







(In reply to the Picture of tcase mount in reply #61)
I told Jonathan he needed a rear transfer case mount. He didn't want to buy one. And that weld looks more than tacked to me.

"I tried to let him make it right by letting bygons be bygons instead of getting his hands back on my buggy."

That's' not making it right in my book.

"Thats kinda funny because when I questioned the amount of hours (maybe my ol lady will post total labor hours in my roller) I was told by Labron ....hell man I got 4 hours worth of grinding invested in your chassis. Everybody always bashes me about my welding so I did alot of grinding on yours...... "

I don't grind welds. Ever. Buff/clean up with a sanding pad, maybe. But never grind.

"He did say he punched in before taking my buggy to have exhaust done and punched out when he got home so that is in the labor time too I am assuming ."

At the time of this build, we wrote times down. I still have Jonathan's log sheet. I was not on the clock driving 15 minutes away & back from my home.

Yep, 400 hours is about right on a turn key. Plus he did get a break in our labor rate.

"You don't want to show the labor rate because its very low. Probably lower than anyone else, that's why you went with this builder. You get what you pay for. That's the way things are. This reminds me of all the threads about FOA shocks.


I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be held responsible but you are at fault also. If you felt like he was ripping you off you you should have stopped. Stopped paying. Stopped everything. Instead you went against your better judgment cause you had "race day" blinders on.


I'd chock it as an L and keep it movin. As should he. "


I would have moved on, but I keep hearing feedback about how he runs his mouth continuously, bashing ME. I was even threatened he was going to go public. I did confront him at Greyrock and he had little to say. I've heard that his buggy won't stay running, again, I had nothing to do with the engine, but my shop is supposed to take the blame?

"It was 2 peices of flat plate welded together and bent where it was welded together. I called it angle iron cause fron the top side the weld is ground smooth but on the bottom you can see where its tacked."

I agree, it should have had gussets in it. Another bad on my part. Shouldn't have slipped by me.

"the shocks couldn't just be turned around."

The shocks were mounted correctly when they left the shop. Look at 1st pics.

"Fact is CSC shouldn't have volunteered labor if they were just going to try to upsell a guy that made it clear that he didn't have the extra money to spend."

Labor was NOT volunteered.

The blaming the "new guy" fabricator is bullshit. If it goes out your door, you are responsible for it

Agreed. I am responsible. I never blamed anyone, and I offered to fix it for nothing.

White trash and bombshell are both phenomenal. BugEJ's isn't

Refer to HIS WORDS, he wanted CHEAP, CHEAP CHEAP. What was it he said.. IF YOU WANT ME TO RACE A CSC BUGGY YOU DO IT THE CHEAPEST EASIEST QUICKEST WAY YOU CAN. I DON"T GIVE A **** IF YOU STICK WELD IT AND SHOOT SHEET METAL SCREWS IN THE FLOOR." Ask Yankey.. you get what you pay for.


I said ALL that to say this... I take all responsibility on the poor craftsmanship on White Power. The ONLY way I can right the wrong, is to fix it and I OFFERED. His money is still owed regardless. Only He and I know the exact words that were exchanged. A real man would approach it to your face and demand his buggy be fixed upto par. Not bad mouth to everyone and then take to social media to plead his case to a jury of his peers. My statement to this jury of his peers is this, the offer still stands - I am willing to make right the wrong done to Jonathan Andrews by CSC Fab assuming that his debt is paid upon completion. After speaking with Jonathan at Greyrock and him telling me about working 2 jobs and his hard luck financial situation, that is the only reason I have not got my attorney involved. Yet as a business owner, I have every right to.

Thanks for letting my post my 'FACTS.'

 

[TBItoy]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

Well **** if you truly didn't volunteer labor, and offered to fix it for free then I guess you did all you can.

Do you feel he owes you enough that it is worth sueing over?

 

[Bouncer22]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

damn, **** just got real

 

[al1tonyota]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

 

[BUG-E J]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

I did not tell you I wanted to lose a friend. You asked me if this was worth losing a friend over and I said yes
When I was told it was over 11k I said do not touch my buggy I am coming to get it. When it goes over am I told it wasn't welded out yet so we had to finish it.
I can get invoices for tabs taken to you and tabs I returned.
Quick and cheap was the agreement. I offered to come do all the bs 10$ an hour work to cut labor down.
I had been told buggy had been completely assembled, suspension cycled, and was basically a turn key buggy. I can post pics of things that still don't line up and clear.
I have a pm you sent me a few years back and it is how I got your number the first time. You approached me.

 

[smbroady82]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

man that was a long read...



Rated X
I have a question about the statement you made about "if you can't work on one of these we shouldn't own one"...
So If I pay a shop (any shop) whatever they charge, and it does not come out right, are you saying I/we should be able to fabricate/redo/change the chassis??
Isn't that the point of us paying a ton of money for labor? because we do not have the time/skill/space to do the work?

 

[BUG-E J]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

O yeah the stickers were the first ones I put on. After the way you acted I decided I did not want to support your buggy. I have never posted anything stating why till you brought it up.

 

[ibrokeit]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

O yeah the stickers were the first ones I put on. After the way you acted I decided I did not want to support your buggy. I have never posted anything stating why till you brought it up.

Gods honest truth. I asked Jonathan why he was running csc stickers. He said he really hoped to work it out with labronne. He took them off when he found out that wouldn't happen.

 

[redneckengineered]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

My statement to this jury of his peers is this, the offer still stands - I am willing to make right the wrong done to Jonathan Andrews by CSC Fab assuming that his debt is paid upon completion.

This seems fair to me given all the BS

 

[ratedX]

Re: Mash yer motor - csc fab bouncer

man that was a long read...



Rated X
I have a question about the statement you made about "if you can't work on one of these we shouldn't own one"...
So If I pay a shop (any shop) whatever they charge, and it does not come out right, are you saying I/we should be able to fabricate/redo/change the chassis??
Isn't that the point of us paying a ton of money for labor? because we do not have the time/skill/space to do the work?

Here's my outlook these arnt a warranted vehicle. They dnt come off an assembly line were everyone of them is identical. Your gunna have problems I'm not saying it shouldn't be right wen u pick it up.but if you think steel dnt bend and **** dnt brake your on cloud 9. I've redone so much **** on all my bouncers I dnt even wanna get started but I enjoy it and leave it at that.