What to do with my fuel system?

trucker · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Re: What to do with my fuel system?

I have had nothing but issues since I changed over to gas as well and have thought about changing back to propane. I don't have an LS motor and my problem is getting the fast efi system to work properly. Only reason I haven't changed back to propane is the money I spent on the fuel system and once u get it running right everyone says I'll love it. I'm probably gonna play with the fast fuel system the rest of this year and if I can't get it right I'll sell it and go back to propane. Propane won't rob my motor of any power because my compression ratio is 13 to 1 so the motor will love it.

wizzo · Jul 26, 2013

i ran propane on a 4.3, it was great. simple, easy to mess with, if needed but all my parts were new and i did enough research to figure out how it works. i know that you know how to properly set up a propane system but not everyone does. if you have to redo the rear end anyway, look at the way randy slawson does his radiator tunnel? i guess you might call it.

from what i can tell, it is wire mesh covered in the front and then the back side has the "tunnel" that directs the air down and out the bottom of the chassis and not directly on the fuel cell. may be worth considering something like this and keeping the efi.

Jduck · Jul 26, 2013

JJ can you post a pic of the area in question? I've yet to see one in any of the threads yet concerning your fuel problems.

Could you a put a stick on heat shield on the gas tank to reflect the heat? I used them on my buggy between the muffler and floorboard and it stopped all heat transfer. The interior side was not hot at all in fact it was no warmer than any other piece of interior sheet metal. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-050501/overview/

patooyee · Jul 26, 2013

I have a shop day tomorrow. I'll snap a pic then. I'm sorry, most of my pics are from the original build and being that the current fuel cell setup is after that I don't have any good pics of it. I've also just not been motivated to take a pic because it is getting changed either way. Like I said, even if I stay with EFI, I'm redoing the back simply for a bigger tank. I think I'll definitely try some of that stick on stuff as a temporary measure until I'm ready to tear into the tube work though. Thanks.

fl-krawler · Jul 26, 2013

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/786737-fuel-cell-pickup-solutions.html

patooyee · Jul 26, 2013

fl-krawler said:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/786737-fuel-cell-pickup-solutions.html

That's the thread I basically copied with my first pickup design that failed.

fl-krawler · Jul 26, 2013

patooyee said:
That's the thread I basically copied with my first pickup design that failed.

You had a fuel accumulator as well? Although it really sounds like you just want justification to switch to propane, I would seriously look into doing a smaller secondary fuel cell that the first one feeds after the fuel runs through a cooler.It might not be as "simple" as you would like it to be but it will work. If the smaller cell is shaped right you can get away with a normal sock style filter like the pump I linked earlier

patooyee · Jul 26, 2013

fl-krawler said:
You had a fuel accumulator as well? Although it really sounds like you just want justification to switch to propane, I would seriously look into doing a smaller secondary fuel cell that the first one feeds after the fuel runs through a cooler.It might not be as "simple" as you would like it to be but it will work. If the smaller cell is shaped right you can get away with a normal sock style filter like the pump I linked earlier

I really have no preference. I just keep discussing all the things it takes to make gasoline work, extra pumps, tanks, surge tanks, pre, post filters, heat shields, coolers, etc, etc, etc. It just keeps getting more and more complex, more and more components added. Its dizzying compared to life with LPG. And then take into consideration how sensitive some of these components are to any operating conditions but ideal. Fuel pumps are basically dead the instant you run them dry for more than a minute or so. And their suction side requires nearly restriction-free pathways or they cavitate. Get the slightest amount of debris in an injector and not only is it toast but it could destroy the engine, too! Blow a little hot air at a line or the cell and gas vaporizes! Get a pinhole leak in a pressure line that spray on a hot header and your rig burns to the ground. NONE of this **** happens with LPG, EVER.

redneckengineered · Jul 26, 2013

patooyee said:
I really have no preference. I just keep discussing all the things it takes to make gasoline work, extra pumps, tanks, surge tanks, pre, post filters, heat shields, coolers, etc, etc, etc. It just keeps getting more and more complex, more and more components added. Its dizzying compared to life with LPG. And then take into consideration how sensitive some of these components are to any operating conditions but ideal. Fuel pumps are basically dead the instant you run them dry for more than a minute or so. And their suction side requires nearly restriction-free pathways or they cavitate. Get the slightest amount of debris in an injector and not only is it toast but it could destroy the engine, too! Blow a little hot air at a line or the cell and gas vaporizes! Get a pinhole leak in a pressure line that spray on a hot header and your rig burns to the ground. NONE of this **** happens with LPG, EVER.

My fuel system is as simple as can be and runs like a top. Woodlee built it like he builds all his systems whether it's a KOH race car or trail rig. Hard line in the tank, 4 Walbro pickups, bottom sump, pump accessible on the fuel rail with ball valve shutoffs, pre and post filter. I think that's about it. Never had a problem.

Now that I've posted this it'll probably **** the bed next ride but seriously if you need all that crap you're talking about either something is wrong or you're racing the Baja 1000000000

wizzo · Jul 26, 2013

this is how close i have my radiator and fuel cell. i can barely squeeze the radiator out with the fan and shroud attached.

i've ran two ECORS races with this setup so far this year and no issues with heating up the fuel.

only difference i can see is your cell is aluminum possibly with a bladder inside? and mine is steel can with plastic tank inside. i'm running 4 walbro pick ups and a external walbro 255 pump. i've got my supply line coming off the bottom of the cell to the pump which basically feeds the pump with out it having to pull the fuel out of the top of the cell.

you may have thought all this through or already tried a setup similar. just wanted to throw out what is working for me. hope you get this sorted out.

patooyee · Jul 26, 2013

wizzo said:
this is how close i have my radiator and fuel cell. i can barely squeeze the radiator out with the fan and shroud attached.

i've ran two ECORS races with this setup so far this year and no issues with heating up the fuel.

only difference i can see is your cell is aluminum possibly with a bladder inside? and mine is steel can with plastic tank inside. i'm running 4 walbro pick ups and a external walbro 255 pump. i've got my supply line coming off the bottom of the cell to the pump which basically feeds the pump with out it having to pull the fuel out of the top of the cell.

you may have thought all this through or already tried a setup similar. just wanted to throw out what is working for me. hope you get this sorted out.

Your rad is definitely closer to the cell than mine, but mine is just an aluminum wall cell, way more efficient at transferring heat through. Does your fan suck toward the cell or blow through to the outside? If I stay with gas I am switching to a cell similar to that.

redneckengineered · Jul 26, 2013

Sounds like Wizzo and I have a similar setup. Here is how mine is packaged. Fans blow towards the cell. I'm sure that red can does provide a level of insulation from the poly cell inside. Plus I'm sure the poly cell inside doesn't hold heat very well.

TBItoy · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Re: Re: What to do with my fuel system?

redneckengineered said:
Sounds like Wizzo and I have a similar setup. Here is how mine is packaged. Fans blow towards the cell. I'm sure that red can does provide a level of insulation from the poly cell inside. Plus I'm sure the poly cell inside doesn't hold heat very well.

You said bottom sump, but also walbro pickups? How does that work?

Or did I mis-read?

Sawzall · Jul 26, 2013

I run a 20 gallon cell with an in tank pump and also the Corvette regulator / filter. No heat shield, the radiator fans blow on the cell and problems at all.

wizzo · Jul 26, 2013

patooyee said:
Your rad is definitely closer to the cell than mine, but mine is just an aluminum wall cell, way more efficient at transferring heat through. Does your fan suck toward the cell or blow through to the outside? If I stay with gas I am switching to a cell similar to that.

fan blows directly onto the cell. my cell is a jegs brand, it does have some pieces of scrap packing foam around the cell just keep the plastic cell tight inside. i guess it does create a air gap also between the metal shell and plastic cell.

redneckengineered said:
Sounds like Wizzo and I have a similar setup. Here is how mine is packaged. Fans blow towards the cell. I'm sure that red can does provide a level of insulation from the poly cell inside. Plus I'm sure the poly cell inside doesn't hold heat very well.

i got my walbro pickups and internal fuel cell parts form WOD and the system layout is the woodlee design also. can't go wrong with a proven setup!

wizzo · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Re: Re: What to do with my fuel system?

TBItoy said:
You said bottom sump, but also walbro pickups? How does that work?

Or did I mis-read?

i think what he meant was the feed line comes out of the bottom of his cell. basically if the fuel level is above the walbro pickups the fuel is gonna naturally flow toward the pump with out the pump having to pull from the tank.

like so:

this is how mine is setup and how WOD does their fuel systems

TBItoy · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do with my fuel system?

wizzo said:
i think what he meant was the feed line comes out of the bottom of his cell. basically if the fuel level is above the walbro pickups the fuel is gonna naturally flow toward the pump with out the pump having to pull from the tank.

like so:

Ok that's kinda what I was thinking. Trying to get a plan for my fuel system for the new buggy.

I've always used stock fuel tanks, or stock sending units in home built steel cells

patooyee · Jul 26, 2013

Sawzall said:
I run a 20 gallon cell with an in tank pump and also the Corvette regulator / filter. No heat shield, the radiator fans blow on the cell and problems at all.

I bet that you have enough capacity that it takes for friggen ever for enough heat to soak in. My cell is only 6 gallons, so it happens pretty quick for me. I want at least 12 gallons when I redo it all.

TBItoy · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Re: Re: What to do with my fuel system?

patooyee said:
I bet that you have enough capacity that it takes for friggen ever for enough heat to soak in. My cell is only 6 gallons, so it happens pretty quick for me. I want at least 12 gallons when I redo it all.

Damn 6 gallons!

We burned almost a whole tank (15 gallons) in a Toyota 22re in Harlan last weekend