Elbe on the chopping block?

[zukkev]

Second, NOVA wasn't likely taken away illegally. There was a lawsuit that got started about that 2 years ago, but I've heard nothing since then. I'm ASSuming that the taking of NOVA funds the way they did it was found to be legal through at least a technicality. Same stance I had when it was first done, they wouldn't have snagged it if they couldn't legally gotten away with it. Even if it was a technicality.

Third, as far as logging goes. The DNR lands we wheel are active logging forests, that's their purpose first and foremost. Our recreational activities are way down on the DNR's mandated list of priorities. The sales of that wood help fund schools (or are supposed to, I doubt even God knows where it goes now). Absolutely they will log Reiter, Elbe, Tahuya, etc. that's why the land is there in the first place. It's not about the logging companies "bribing" the DNR to cut down trees, which is what you seemed to imply.

My understanding is they're still at battle...haven't seen any verdict out there as of yet that I'm aware of...
And yes, the DNR lands we have to use are active logging forests, and although that is their #1 objective....DNR is seeing the value/importance of the active users out there volunteering their time/$$ to help keep areas open for ORV....

 

[olywa]

Say worse comes to worse .....can't we as the people file a lawsuit or court action of some type, against the state for closing OUR lands ........ How can it be public land if the public is gated from using it ???? :stirpot:

 

[dirtygoat]

2 years old, those places have been shut down for a while.

But even the two camps in Tahuya ORV listed as "facilities removed" are occasionally opened back up for a weekend here or there.

Yes it is almost 2 years old... The things that are happening right now have been in play for years... That's part of knowing what's behind the big curtain...

Most people don't know what's happening until someone throws out an e-mail with an "Alert!!!" headline... Then they jump up and down screaming about what we have to do... Well, by the time most people hear about it, it's already to late...

 

[olywa]

Most people don't know what's happening until someone throws out an e-mail with an "Alert!!!" headline... Then they jump up and down screaming about what we have to do... Well, by the time most people hear about it, it's already to late...

well said....I went thru this with hound hunting in WA state and well as of now today, it is all but gone as are the hunters, it took about 10 years and poof all gone all illegal.......

THE SAME WILL HAPPEN HERE AS WELL, if everyone doesn't start to get it turned around ASAP once the ball starts to roll...it is VERY hard to get it to stop.....if u even can stop it at all........

 

[boardbysled]

well said....I went thru this with hound hunting in WA state and well as of now today, it is all but gone as are the hunters, it took about 10 years and poof all gone all illegal.......

THE SAME WILL HAPPEN HERE AS WELL, if everyone doesn't start to get it turned around ASAP once the ball starts to roll...it is VERY hard to get it to stop.....if u even can stop it at all........

Meh, there is those few houndhunters still out there, who found loopholes in the system or whatnot.

Just like there would be wheelers out there that find loopholes or whatnot.

 

[Travis1]

Yes it is almost 2 years old... The things that are happening right now have been in play for years... That's part of knowing what's behind the big curtain...

Most people don't know what's happening until someone throws out an e-mail with an "Alert!!!" headline... Then they jump up and down screaming about what we have to do... Well, by the time most people hear about it, it's already to late...

Absolutely.

I was just trying to say, having Tahuya listed as "at risk" on a public document doesn't mean much. Often times you have to be looking for what they aren't showing you.

That's what I was trying to get at with the don't put a lot of faith in whats been shown to the public remarks.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

No-- I am saying any DNR prodject is not a factor in other factors for $$. If anything E&E would be funded before any large prodject. Thats what I am saying.

I see folks at the DNR losing jobs.

They are not wheelers. Does anyone know a single DNR person involved in 4X4ing?

We have one lady at elbe (nancy) that could lose a job (maybe) if its closed. She has no say really in who gets laid off and who dont.

We have ALLOT of folks in offices at the DNR that could get the axe to save a buck if they are not needed.

I would think the "office" folks are going to look out for their jobs before our trails.

Reiter has more "office" work to get done for along time while its getting developed. Dont ya think a bunch of "office" folks will put their project and needs first before worrying about laying off one person that babysits elbe?

They love babysitting that nice warm office and wasting money.

Putting the reiter job on hold will take some of that job security away.


I know if my income was on the line I would support whatever keeps me imployed if I could.

Reiter is a lage project and allot of folks stand to lose money if it is put on hold.


WHO LOSES MONEY/JOBS IF ELBE CLOSES?:corn:

 

[Money Mark]

The Explore Washington Pass could be the answer.

 

[crash2]

I see folks at the DNR losing jobs.

They are not wheelers. Does anyone know a single DNR person involved in 4X4ing?

We have one lady at elbe (nancy) that could lose a job (maybe) if its closed. She has no say really in who gets laid off and who dont.

We have ALLOT of folks in offices at the DNR that could get the axe to save a buck if they are not needed.

I would think the "office" folks are going to look out for their jobs before our trails.

Reiter has more "office" work to get done for along time while its getting developed. Dont ya think a bunch of "office" folks will put their project and needs first before worrying about laying off one person that babysits elbe?

They love babysitting that nice warm office and wasting money.

Putting the reiter job on hold will take some of that job security away.


I know if my income was on the line I would support whatever keeps me imployed if I could.

Reiter is a lage project and allot of folks stand to lose money if it is put on hold.


WHO LOSES MONEY/JOBS IF ELBE CLOSES?:corn:

The DNR is not in the biz for ORV use. To be able to use DNR land to wheel on is a privilege--nothing more. Love that or hate it but thats the facts.

 

[japerry]

had a great conversation with the DNR in the SW region to get the skinny.... Some facts:

1) Funding is bleek, probably the worst ever seen for recreation. We're past being able to reduce services. The next thing to go are whole areas.

2) Tahulya as a recreation area is larger than Elbe. Tiger is larger than both.

3) Funding will ensure the areas should stay open through June. However if it is slated for closure at the end of the bienium, it could happen a little sooner (like a month or so) if they allocate money to decommision (pull out porta potties, install gates) the area.

4) There are no definites. Elbe at this time is not closing.

5) DNR is really hoping that the forest pass and/or NOVA gets restored to some level so that no further closures occur.

6) PS. If Elbe closes, it will be because of BUDGET issues, not because of trail maintenance.

 

[Travis1]

Does anyone know a single DNR person involved in 4X4ing?

Yes, and they don't want to see those lands closed any more than we do. Not because of job loss, but because of aftermath.

 

[japerry]

The Explore Washington Pass could be the answer.

For sustaining what we already have? Yes it most likely would be. It'd be nice though to see hunters, shooters, and other users required to pay for this pass as well. They're using the facilities just as much as we do.

 

[crash2]

For sustaining what we already have? Yes it most likely would be. It'd be nice though to see hunters, shooters, and other users required to pay for this pass as well. They're using the facilities just as much as we do.

Think "across" the board when you think about the pass jakob.

 

[Travis1]

I'de love to be in on the wording for how the pass funds are treated legally though.

Otherwise, based on why NOVA was taken, it's just a NOVA 2.0.

 

[japerry]

Now onto what I think/worry will happen.

Elbe is definitely a possibility for closing. Why?

1) Evans creek will be cited as a 4x4 area close by as an alternative

2) Elbe is the smallest of the three SW region recreation areas. It only caters to 4x4s (and a little bit to quads and motorcycles) .. not much for non-motorized.

3) They have reduced services and have no where else to cut. You can only cut so many arms and legs before you loose someone.

DNR doesn't want this to happen, and they know it will have lasting repercussions. They don't have enforcement to take on rouge trails that will be built as a consequence.

I take a more George Carlin view of it.. Total carnage and mayhem ... build some bad-ass illegal trails and make it known to the state that we have an epidemic on our hands. Do what the Mtn Bikers have done. They have gone way further with DNR than we have with keeping rouge places open, mainly because they have NO legal places to go.

If the state sees no illegal use, they won't see it as a problem. If there isn't a problem to be fixed, they won't budget for it. We need to make it a problem.

Lastly. where the hell are the manufacturers? ARB is located in Washington, 4wheel parts makes tons of money in washington, Warn is in Oregon. I'd think these off-road manufacturers would have some interest in spending money on sustaining these trails and opening up new areas. Where are the Jeep dealers? Where are the Motorcycle/ATV dealers?? These places make thousands off us when we buy our vehicles.

We need to look at becoming more self-sustainable financially. And that can only be done by bringing our sport into the private sector. We're mostly conservatives here, so most of you should understand that :;

 

[Money Mark]

They're using the facilities just as much as we do.

These types of users are examples of who would be required to buy the pass:

Bird watching
Boating
Camping
Canoeing, kayaking
Cross-country skiing
Dog training
Equestrian
Fishing
Geocaching
Hang gliding / paragliding
Hiking
Hunting
Mountain biking
Off-road vehicle riding
Snowmobiling
Snowshoeing
Water skiing
Wildlife viewing

We'd ALL pay for it.

 

[japerry]

Think "across" the board when you think about the pass jakob.

You're talking about all areas motorized and non? yes. but DNR has stated that the pass in the current legislation would be able to sustain all current motorized areas to at least the current levels. If their research holds true and we get to keep what we have, then I'm all for it.

 

[crash2]

Think of it as an access pass to use the land(can be anything).

 

[japerry]

These types of users are examples of who would be required to buy the pass:

Bird watching
Boating
Camping
Canoeing, kayaking
Cross-country skiing
Dog training
Equestrian
Fishing
Geocaching
Hang gliding / paragliding
Hiking
Hunting
Mountain biking
Off-road vehicle riding
Snowmobiling
Snowshoeing
Water skiing
Wildlife viewing

We'd ALL pay for it.

ahh good to know.

 

[crash2]

You're talking about all areas motorized and non? yes. but DNR has stated that the pass in the current legislation would be able to sustain all current motorized areas to at least the current levels. If their research holds true and we get to keep what we have, then I'm all for it.

Yes.