Aluminum Radiators

Lamar · Sep 7, 2006

Dear CrustyJeep;
No, it doesn't prove anything, except that I can build one from scratch, is all. How do you think they get new rads here in Bolivia? They sure don't buy them! You'd be suprised what you can make by hand when there is no other method. I built a 3 core for my YJ a couple of years ago and it wasn't any big deal. Took a couple of days because I modded the water pump and the t-stat housing too. And you are not exactly correct about your statement that AVAILABLE aluminum rads cool better than AVAILABLE brass rads do, either. They cool about the same, actually. Here is a little secret, my friend. The rad ususally flows more water than necessary. The REAL cooling comes from the water pumps' availability to flow coolant. If you have a high flow pump, then you have most of your cooling problems beat. Also, coolant only accounts for about 1/3 of the engines' actual cooling. The other 2/3s comes from the fuel/air mixture entering the camber/cylinder area. This is where the REAL cooling takes place at, my friend. If the timing is off or the mixture is too lean, then the fuel/air mixture won't properly cool the cylinders. If you find that you're running a bit warm, retard the spark a bit and enrichen the mixture and things should cool back down quite nicely. Oh wait! I forgot! You can't do that with FI, can you? Oh well, then I guess you'll be needing that fancy aluminum rad, after all.
Your friend;
LAMAR

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

I'm think I'm starting to see where you got into trouble on JA............

Lamar said:
The REAL cooling comes from the water pumps' availability to flow coolant. If you have a high flow pump, then you have most of your cooling problems beat.

No. The REAL cooling comes from the ability of the coolant to absorb heat in the coolant passages, and the radiator's ability to ... uh... radiate that heat to its surroundings. Basically what you're saying is that a bigger water pump = a smaller radiator. The logical conclusion to that thought would be that an infinitly large pump would allow an infinitly small radiator. Wrong.

Lamar said:
Also, coolant only accounts for about 1/3 of the engines' actual cooling. The other 2/3s comes from the fuel/air mixture entering the camber/cylinder area. This is where the REAL cooling takes place at, my friend.

This is patently ridiculous. If this were true, then the combustion chambers would be COOLER than the surrounding metal. While you're at it, you might as well say that pumping extra air into a furnace will make it COOLER.....................

Perhaps what you meant to say is that 2/3 of the HEAT produced by the engine is because of the fuel air mixture... Although it's much more than that, I'm quite sure.

Or maybe you're thinking of an air compressor......... In which case, you'd be right.

Lamar · Sep 7, 2006

Dear CrustyJeep;
Yes, it's true my friend. About 65% of the engines' cooling comes from directly from the fuel/air mixture. Think about it this way. Fuel and air are atomized and mixed together in the intake manifold. Put a drop of gasoline on your hand on a hot day. Notice that it feels cold? That's because it's evaporating rapidly. Now, imagine what's happening when a charged fuel/air mixture enters the combustion chamber under a vacuum. What happens? The only thing that CAN happen. The fuel/air mixture becomes hot and therefore the chamber and cylinder cools down. I'm suprised not only that don't you understand this, but that you are actually arguing about it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

Lamar said:
Yes, it's true my friend. About 65% of the engines' cooling comes from directly from the fuel/air mixture. Think about it this way. Fuel and air are atomized and mixed together in the intake manifold. Put a drop of gasoline on your hand on a hot day. Notice that it feels cold? That's because it's evaporating rapidly. Now, imagine what's happening when a charged fuel/air mixture enters the combustion chamber under a vacuum. What happens? The only thing that CAN happen. The fuel/air mixture becomes hot and therefore the chamber and cylinder cools down. I'm suprised not only that don't you understand this, but that you are actually arguing about it.

:haha:

I understand it. What you seem to be missing is that right after the fuel/air mixture goes into the combustion chamber and cools it, it ignites. Now tell me, what happens to a fuel/air mixture when it ignites? It gets hot, doesn't it ? (You get to go to the head of the class now :flipoff

And guess what happens to a great deal of that heat? It goes right back into the walls of the combustion chamber!!! It cools the chamber a little on the way in, and heats it back up a lot on ignition. For gawd sake man, why do you think the damn thing needs a radiator to begin with???

crash2 · Sep 7, 2006

Lamar said:
Dear CrustyJeep;
Yes, it's true my friend. About 65% of the engines' cooling comes from directly from the fuel/air mixture. Think about it this way. Fuel and air are atomized and mixed together in the intake manifold. Put a drop of gasoline on your hand on a hot day. Notice that it feels cold? That's because it's evaporating rapidly. Now, imagine what's happening when a charged fuel/air mixture enters the combustion chamber under a vacuum. What happens? The only thing that CAN happen. The fuel/air mixture becomes hot and therefore the chamber and cylinder cools down. I'm suprised not only that don't you understand this, but that you are actually arguing about it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

But you are thinking in old school "crab" terms---things are MUCH different in the world of most your efficiant FI systems.. fuel atomization in lets say a carb comes at the venturi and in a FI the injector nozzles--has nothing to do with the intake (It might but the root of it is at the venturi/injector)

As for the "fuel" droplet that feels "cold" you get the same thing comparing a droplet of fuel/water. Fuel does not evapurate "that quickly".

As for combustion camber temps---there are a # of variables to this......

Lamar · Sep 7, 2006

Dear group;
OK, now please understand that I REALLY hate to do this, but it seems that I am left with no choice. Without further ado, I am posting a pretty decent link that I found pertaining to gasoline engine cooling systems in "How stuff works". Granted, the info contained therein is generalized and pretty corny, but it should suffice in this particular instance. I implore everyone to click on the link, read and try to absorb at least SOME of the info that is contained in the following pages:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm

Your friend;
LAMAR

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

:haha: Well thanks for posting the link that proves you 100% wrong...

The Article said:
Temperatures in the combustion chamber of the engine can reach 4,500 F (2,500 C), so cooling the area around the cylinders is critical. Areas around the exhaust valves are especially crucial, and almost all of the space inside the cylinder head around the valves that is not needed for structure is filled with coolant. If the engine goes without cooling for very long, it can seize. When this happens, the metal has actually gotten hot enough for the piston to weld itself to the cylinder. This usually means the complete destruction of the engine.

joe37705 · Sep 7, 2006

Lamar said:
Dear group;
OK, now please understand that I REALLY hate to do this, but it seems that I am left with no choice. Without further ado, I am posting a pretty decent link that I found pertaining to gasoline engine cooling systems in "How stuff works". Granted, the info contained therein is generalized and pretty corny, but it should suffice in this particular instance. I implore everyone to click on the link, read and try to absorb at least SOME of the info that is contained in the following pages:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm

Your friend;
LAMAR

I see no mention of the air/fuel mix aidding the cooling of the motor in the article.

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

I'm starting to think Lamar is just a troll. He *appears* to believe strongly in his misconceptions. Misinformation is never a good thing.

Roccrawler · Sep 7, 2006

Who the hell starts off there reply with "Dear"

Gotta quit that

crash2 · Sep 7, 2006

CrustyJeep said:
I'm starting to think Lamar is just a troll. He *appears* to believe strongly in his misconceptions. Misinformation is never a good thing.

I think its more culture driven on his replies. Gotta remember where he is from is worlds different from where we live.

Jason C · Sep 7, 2006

I think reading on the subject and analizing it to death does not seem to help anything but more debate. Real world test.... not #'s added up by some guy behind a desk or on a computer or something they ahve read and drawn their own conclusion.

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

crash said:
I think its more culture driven on his replies. Gotta remember where he is from is worlds different from where we live.

Perhaps, but fuel/air mixture doesn't go from adding heat to taking it away when you go south of the equator :;

And there's no way in fawk a rational human being would suggest such a crock of fiction unless he intends to mislead someone.

Maybe he thinks it's funny... But if he can't deliver it in a funny way, it's right back to misinformation.

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

Jason C said:
I think reading on the subject and analizing it to death does not seem to help anything but more debate. Real world test.... not #'s added up by some guy behind a desk or on a computer or something they ahve read and drawn their own conclusion.

That's a crock too. EVERYTHING you learn in the real world can be explained on paper. EVERYTHING. If the math doesn't add up, guess what? You either need to get back out and test some more, or you fawked up the math.

But don't take that the wrong way Jason :flipoff: If you don't go out and USE stuff and TEST stuff in the real world, then the math ain't worth much is it? But there's a difference between knowing something works, and understanding WHY it works. If you understand it, you're much more likely to be able to apply that knowledge in new ways when you get curve balls thrown at you. And if you understand it, you should be able to explain it. Ain't nothin' wrong with that :;

Then again, if you forget about the real world part and start posting irrational **** based on favorable facts and ignoring unfavorable facts, then I guess that makes you a trolling web wheeler :flipoff:

crash2 · Sep 7, 2006

Jason C said:
I think reading on the subject and analizing it to death does not seem to help anything but more debate. Real world test.... not #'s added up by some guy behind a desk or on a computer or something they ahve read and drawn their own conclusion.

:flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff:

Jason C · Sep 7, 2006

CrustyJeep said:
That's a crock too. EVERYTHING you learn in the real world can be explained on paper. EVERYTHING. If the math doesn't add up, guess what? You either need to get back out and test some more, or you fawked up the math.

But don't take that the wrong way Jason :flipoff: If you don't go out and USE stuff and TEST stuff in the real world, then the math ain't worth much is it? But there's a difference between knowing something works, and understanding WHY it works. If you understand it, you're much more likely to be able to apply that knowledge in new ways when you get curve balls thrown at you. And if you understand it, you should be able to explain it. Ain't nothin' wrong with that :;

Then again, if you forget about the real world part and start posting irrational **** based on favorable facts and ignoring unfavorable facts, then I guess that makes you a trolling web wheeler :flipoff:

I understand what your saying Glenn. the math does have to add up. the point I am making is to read than "think" you have a grasp on what is going on. I have used Brass copper radiators of similar dementions VS aluminum Radiators. Tried both. Lemar Read the propertys of what metal was a better heat conductor. he than built his own and preached that Aluminum is for racecars and bling. and brass coppers is better. Did he infact try an aluminum rad prior to preaching that brass copper is better? no just blurted "JUNK" mine is better. Did I do the math... yeah I had to weather oyur doing it real world or on paper it is still doing the math. like the new moreons that finish college and think they ahve a new grasp on what to do to make things better. sounds all good on paper but most of the time there is the guy who has figgured alot of things out by trial and error.

Jason C · Sep 7, 2006

crash said:
:flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff:

No having your VERY own following and your own BBS does! :flipoff: :clappy: :Good:

CrustyJeep · Sep 7, 2006

Jason C said:
the point I am making is to read than "think" you have a grasp on what is going on. I have used Brass copper radiators of similar dementions VS aluminum Radiators. Tried both. Lemar Read the propertys of what metal was a better heat conductor. he than built his own and preached that Aluminum is for racecars and bling. and brass coppers is better. Did he infact try an aluminum rad prior to preaching that brass copper is better? no just blurted "JUNK" mine is better.

Yep, hence my edit... He took INCOMPLETE information, formed an INCORRECT conclusion, and then assumed his incorrect conclusion trumps real world experience. If you're gonna do it on paper, you can't leave anything out, or you're fawked, and then you come here and spew misinformation like it's the gospel truth. And get called an idiot :flipoff:

crash2 · Sep 7, 2006

Jason C said:
No having your VERY own following and your own BBS does! :flipoff: :clappy: :Good:

:kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

quit following me around ya psycho

Lamar · Sep 7, 2006

Dear group;
I've used both brass and aluminum radiators and while aluminum does all right, but IMVHO brass is still the best for offroad use. I am having cooling problems of my own right now and they are opposite of the norm. I can't the water to rise above 150 degrees F. I have a 4 core brass rad, a stock 2F heavy usage water pump with 2" port, a t-stat housing with a 2" port and a 180 F t-stat. I've verified the temp gauge and it's right on the money. So I'll prolly end up going with a 1.5" WP and t-stat housing and rad ports. I ran that beast at over 120 KPH for 3 hours today and it still won't get warm. Last week I kept it floored in 4W-LO in heavy mud for 14 hours and still no luck, it never rose past 150 degrees. I've advanced the ignition timing to the point of knocking, I've used hotter plugs and leaned it to the point where it won't idle and the damned thing still will not rise above 150 degrees. If I could get a higher temp t-stat I would try that, but 180F is all they stock here. I guess when I decided to build a cool running motor, I built this one a bit too cool. Of course there's no such animal as anti-freeze here, as there's really no need for it so that is out. So yeah, you guys are absolutely correct i suppose. Aluminum is much better than brass. What was I thinking?
Your friend;
LAMAR