Aeration

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

crash said:
You could always have the injectors cleaned--but if you can upgrade then why the heck not...

have you tried swapping ecms?

And I suspect when in limp mode it stays in open loop--GM never had a limp mode..

Yes we have swapped PCMs....I'm not aware of a GM system that does not have limp mode.

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
It acts as if it's in open loop at all times and it very well could be. Without the proper test equipment it's hard to tell for sure. I only know so much about this system too but as you said it's very simillar to a GM system. In that case if it's running excessively rich or lean it would stay open loop due to the O2's not being in range to cycle. Vapor lock and/ or bad injectors could do this.

Well typicly for it to go into closed loop(GM)--you have to get the o2's to vary between a certain voltage range---this is how the ecm knows the o2 is hot and when to go into closed loop.. So if they stay at one voltage area (so to speak) for a long time(and a long time being for 4-5 seconds) that could easily keep it from going into closed loop. One reason I always run heated o2's on my conversions--because it was not uncommon for the system to pop into eopn loop at idel(TBI's)

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
Yes we have swapped PCMs....I'm not aware of a GM system that does not have limp mode.

Well I should not say they don't have limp mode--but for certain sensors if there is a failure it will pop into a set of parameters for that sensor..

But there is no global limp mode so to speak--even on the tbi stuff...

The only true "limp" mode is 10k mode due to a scanner on the early tbi stuff..

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

FWIW I would not upgrade anything untill this is worked out. Repare/ replace- sure. When the time comes I would still not upgrade the injectors. You can simply raise fuel pressure for the same effect and it's cheaper too.

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

crash said:
Well I should not say they don't have limp mode--but for certain sensors if there is a failure it will pop into a set of parameters for that sensor..

But there is no global limp mode so to speak--even on the tbi stuff...

The only true "limp" mode is 10k mode due to a scanner on the early tbi stuff..

All of the TBI's have a true limp mode. When in limp the calpack/ chip is completely bypassed and a netres/ limp chip is used. Any time the SES light is flashing rapidly it's in limp mode.
The 10K mode is called ALDL mode.

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
All of the TBI's have a true limp mode. When in limp the calpack/ chip is completely bypassed and a netres/ limp chip is used. Any time the engine is running and the SES light is lit it's in limp mode.

But your speaking outside the OEM world--something we never deal with in the field...

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
All of the TBI's have a true limp mode. When in limp the calpack/ chip is completely bypassed and a netres/ limp chip is used. Any time the engine is running and the SES light is lit it's in limp mode.
The 10K mode is called ALDL mode.

Never heard that term :eeek:

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

crash said:
Never heard that term :eeek:

ALDM mode is when the ECM is triggered to output the ALDL data like when a scanner is attached.

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
ALDM mode is when the ECM is triggered to output the ALDL data like when a scanner is attached.

I know what it is :redneck: I have never heard the term aldl mode---we always knew it as 10k mode... But then again there are only a few of us left in the field who actually remember the days of 10k mode :haha:

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

Edited post above. Limp mode is a flashing SES light not a solid on...

Totalled · Jun 5, 2008

Stupid question time.. during the ECU swapping a speed density one didn't get swapped in, right? On fords, IIRC, the engine coolant temp sender tells the computer when to go in/out of closed loop.

How ford's EECIV works: http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=64

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
Edited post above. Limp mode is a flashing SES light not a solid on...

And when the lamp flashes--its flashing lean/rich :awesomework:

jeepmauler · Jun 5, 2008

Totalled said:
Stupid question time.. during the ECU swapping a speed density one didn't get swapped in, right? On fords, IIRC, the engine coolant temp sender tells the computer when to go in/out of closed loop.

How ford's EECIV works: http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=64

No....I've had the motor and harness since it was removed...all from the same mustang GT.

We swapped in a new temp sensor just to be sure the Computer was seeing an accurate motor temp

I only talk about swapping in 24# injectors with 24# MAF becasue...If I gotta buy injectors I can't stomach putting stock(19#) ones back in.I will probably pull the injectors and have them checked out

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

Totalled said:
IIRC, the engine coolant temp sender tells the computer when to go in/out of closed loop.

That's one of the qualifiers. Typically it's engine temp sensor threshold, O2 must switch which means things must be close to stoich. Power enrichment mode must be inactive.......And that's assuming the rest of the system is working properly.

crash2 · Jun 5, 2008

Binder said:
That's one of the qualifiers. Typically it's engine temp sensor threshold, O2 must switch which means things must be close to stoich. Power enrichment mode must be inactive.......And that's assuming the rest of the system is working properly.

Thats old sckool thinking and changed shortly after the TBI. The engine doesn't have to be at any spacific temp to reach closed loop status--and on the new generation vorteks you can reach closed loop in less than a minute..

Binder · Jun 5, 2008

That's why I say "typically". The temp threshold can be set at any temp or turned off if needed. The way I understand it the purpose of this is to allow for the extra fuel during choke when the engine would be too rich for the O2 to operate. On port injection the choke isn't needed as much so it's not as important....This Ford junk is port so maybe.....
I really need to get the hardware to hook up to a EEC system so I can learn more of the specifics..

jeepmauler · Jun 7, 2008

This guy is having a similar issue to mine....almost identical.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=688258

Binder · Jun 7, 2008

Jeff I have one of those hand held infra red thermometers. I'll bring it along next week so if your rig acts up we can take tome quick temps at different spots.
May not act up again untill it gets good and hot outside though......

GaryTJ · Jun 7, 2008

If it helps yuou at all to diagnose.

ford uses the formula to decide pulse width

base pulse width (2.2MS)x ect voltage x intake air voltage (if equipped) x TPS voltage x Map frequency to get pulse width in open loop.

in closed loop you just add - x hso (in Lambda terms) 1 being ideal))

jeepmauler · Jul 14, 2008

Update

FWIW

Bottom line...............switched out to 24# injectors and 24# MAF,cranked the timimg back up to 15* and the thing runs like a raped ape!!Did a bunch of "other" little things like,insulated the fuel lines,re-routed them away from heat sources,went throught the fuel pump etc. but the main issue in my case was definetly the injectors were FUBAR from the beginning. The next mod will be a 70mm throttle body to flow some more air to balance out the injectors but as of now the **** runs good