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Air Shock/Front Suspension Redesign Tech

BamaTJ

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Damn we need some peeps on this board that know something about tuning a set of airs. I know P wants to mess with his and I NEED to mess with mine. Here is the post I made on PBB on the subject. Hopefully some shock experts will see it and offer a fix. I know the bumpstops above the links don't HELP, but I think a large part of the problem is the shocks. My initial thoughts were add oil or valve the compression side stiffer. But alas, I know jack **** about air shocks...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=692328
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Mine worked pretty good on my old buggy. We added some oil to them, left the valving the same and I ran 250# of Nitrogen in them. This stiffened them up a bunch and let me hammer on it without the bounce I had when the shocks were stock.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Nitrogen affects the ride height though right? Mine is at a perfect height right now and I don't want to mess with that. I need to look for the valving etch tonight. This things are 4 years old or more so who knows what the valving and oil level is. I don't even think they made single bleed pistons at the time these were put on...
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

I know what I did, removed one bolt from each end, install coil over.

For Sale:

2 - Fox 16" air shocks, three rides. Paid $600 inc. tax. sell for $450 with Morris mountain dirt on them. $475 clean!
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

John Galbreath Jr. said:
I know what I did, removed one bolt from each end, install coil over.

For Sale:

2 - Fox 16" air shocks, three rides. Paid $600 inc. tax. sell for $450 with Morris mountain dirt on them. $475 clean!

I don't have money for CO's although that though has crossed my mind!
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Anybody local have one of those N2 gauges that I can measure my nitrogen charge before I tear into these things? I want to reset the nitrogen charge to what it is now after working on them. DSI on PBB has given me some good ideas to begin the tuning process. I plan to start there.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Nitrogen does more than just ride height. It stiffens them up too, however the oil level will really make the most difference there.

If you dont want to fool with valving, pull them off, pour out the oil and measure it. Add more, refill N and then try that.

I think you should take the rubber bumps off and put on some of those small Timkin style ones if there is no room for air bumps. Just get it where it is not riding on the bumps for testing. I think those, from what you say, are adding to the problem.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

wngrog said:
Nitrogen does more than just ride height. It stiffens them up too, however the oil level will really make the most difference there.

If you dont want to fool with valving, pull them off, pour out the oil and measure it. Add more, refill N and then try that.

I think you should take the rubber bumps off and put on some of those small Timkin style ones if there is no room for air bumps. Just get it where it is not riding on the bumps for testing. I think those, from what you say, are adding to the problem.

Dammit.. I hate when i agree with the midget.... ****. laughing1
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

P if I bring you the shocks can we charge them at your place one day at lunch? Do you have a gauge that will tell me how much nitro is in them before I charge them?
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Matt O. said:
P if I bring you the shocks can we charge them at your place one day at lunch? Do you have a gauge that will tell me how much nitro is in them before I charge them?
P will do it anytime. He has nothing better to do. Doubt he is really MOVING anyway.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

On 2'' airshocks, since you are working with such high N pressure, you really need to use one of those bling deals that allows you to unscrew the Schrader valve without loosing pressure. If you just hit it like a bike tire you loose 5-7# each time you release the hose from the Schrader. It is really annoying if you are trying to level out the charge.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

I'm nothing special but I am kind of picky about my air shocks and I've remounted them 4 or 5 times so I feel like I've done it right and wrong. Forgive me if you know all of this already.

Nitrogen and oil work together to set the ride height, it's really about taking space. Obviously nitrogen compresses and oil doesn't so as you add more oil you need less nitrogen to achieve the same ride height. The other thing that happens is the spring rate changes. If you run a lot of oil and a little air it's going to be harder to bottom out the shock. Of course, the shock will bottom easily if you don't run much oil and use all nitrogen to get the height you want.

(Images stolen from billavista)
The other thing to look at is the way the spring rate changes with the ratio of oil to nitrogen.

Don't pay too much attention to the numbers but check out the curve. When you have a lot of oil and a little nitrogen the compression happens quickly (in a short amount of travel) and you get a steep curve like this:
Model2.jpg


When you have a lot nitrogen and a little oil you get a flatter curve like this:
Model3.jpg


I'm guessing the poly bumps are a big part of the problem. They are just undampened springs that make the axle want to rebound aggressively when you get to full compression. On the other hand, they are nice because they help you from bottoming out on the air shocks and getting a rough ride. (Air shocks are pretty durable, you probably won't break them by bottoming out, they break when you pull them apart at full extension.) So now that they are pulled you have to find another way to handle the hard hits. My answer is more oil. I've never even seen your rig in person so I can't tell you how much to add but I'd do about 10cc at a time and get it to where the suck down winch struggles to get it to full squat.

So this is what I'd do:
1) Pull the poly bumps.
2) Add oil.
3) Adjust nitrogen to ride height

As for the fill kit, I haven't used the bling screw kind but I'm just positive that I'm not missing anything. I just set the regulator to the proper PSI, put on the straight chuck, pull the trigger for 2-3 seconds until I hear it equalize, then pull it off. I'm not losing anything but the air in the hose. You can easily hear what's on and it's working well for me. FWIW, this is a pic of my regulator and hose setup. Don't pay much attention to the beat up tank, it just gets traded in when it's empty.
P5260122.JPG
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Of yeah, I have a set of these tire deflators and they come in really handy when I'm adjusting my air shocks. If you let the air out too fast the oil shoots out too. It's really hard to measure, or even estimate, how much oil just sprayed across your motor so it's best to be careful and not lose anything but a little mist. They've also come in handy for deflating tires and at $10 they easily earned their spot in my truck's toolbox.

http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=110&sourceCode=froogle
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

vanguard said:
Of yeah, I have a set of these tire deflators and they come in really handy when I'm adjusting my air shocks. If you let the air out too fast the oil shoots out too. It's really hard to measure, or even estimate, how much oil just sprayed across your motor so it's best to be careful and not lose anything but a little mist. They've also come in handy for deflating tires and at $10 they easily earned their spot in my truck's toolbox.

http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=110&sourceCode=froogle

Agree with the stuff Woody said, however you will loose 5-7# as you take the chuck off if the weigt is on the shock. I found on my buggy that if I wanted it to sit level I had to have less than 20# difference between the sides. If you check the pressure with a regular guage 3-4 times, you loose 20 or so pounds.

Also, this may sound obvious, but when you check the pressure on your shocks., you have to take the weight off of them. I checked mine one time and I had like 500# and it scared me to death and then I realized the weight of the rig was causing the extra pressure.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

wngrog said:
Agree with the stuff Woody said, however you will loose 5-7# as you take the chuck off if the weigt is on the shock.
I didn't know anybody adjusted them with the weight on the shock. I've never tried it.

Another thing that's obvious, a cherry picker is a nice tool for lifting the front while adjusting these things. My other method, using a hi-lift one corner at a time, is enough work that I have to fight the "good enough" urge pretty hard. I always fully extend the shock and write down my measurements so I can repeat it.

Another thing, set the ride height a little high because as the nitrogen and oil emulsify (combine) the shocks will settle.
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

vanguard said:
I didn't know anybody adjusted them with the weight on the shock. I've never tried it.

You should not...that was my point. I knew nothing about them when I got them. DONT mess with them with the weight off the car on the shocks..
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

If your not getting what you want out of your shocks , it doesn't matter what psi or how much oil is in them. The best way is to start from scratch. It's alot of work , but it will payoff ten folds. I've ran my coilovers with 60 psi 180 psi 200 psi and completely empty. Eventually you'll get to where you feel good about the ride and bling blauw your in bizzness. Basicly what everyone else said I'm just padding my post.

You know you would think some the racers on here would throw in their two cents , but they have it figured out and don't want to give up their secrets. :popcorn:
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

Ok, I plan to pull the shocks completey dump the nitro and oil and start over. I would like to measure the amout of nitro in them before I pull the valve just to know where they were. Do I have to charge them with nitro when they are mounted on the rig at full extension or can I charge them off the rig and mount them after?
 
Re: Does anybody know anything about tuning air shocks?

"Adam, you should probably hire the Rock Midget as a full time consultant as he is all knowing in the ways of everything 4x4 related, just ask him he will tell you"

Although you are a fuctard, I will share the steps...
1) pull shocks

2) take N pressure

3) drain N

4) measure oil

5) replace oil with 20cc more

6) add same amount of N you had before (200-250#)

7) pressurinze to poundage you had before

8) wheel

9) play with 25# increments with N pressure

10) If you dont like what you have, add 20cc more oil and start with step 6 and repeat
 

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