Binder--> horsepower & torque

[whatthe?]

I've said this like a million times I think.
Yes, exactly. HP is a measure of work being done. Torque is a measure of a twisting force.
Sure.
Or shift gears and apply less torque and more RPM while still maintaining the same 20MPH. More torque with less RPM or less torque with more RPM. It's the same output either way.

And HP is a measure of the work being done as an end result, the bike going 20 MPH with X weight and Y wind resistance would require Z HP to maintain that 20 MPH. You can maintain (20 MPH=Z HP) while changing the torque and RPM..........It's really much simpler than you're trying to make it. Using the bicycle example you can have torque input to the pedals but this won't tell you how fast you can go. You can push with all your might against a wall and not move the bike or you can push with all your might on level ground and move the bike foreward. The problem is measuring how hard you push doesn't tell you what the bike is doing or can do because you don't know how fast the wheel is turning.....Likewise you can measure the RPM of the bikes wheel but this alone doesn't tell you how much torque is being applied to the pedal so you don't know what the bikes potential is.......Put the two together, torque- pressure to the pedal and RPM the wheel is turning and you have a HP number. The HP number by itself doesn't tell you if the bike is (1)in first gear and the rider is peddeling his ass off to maintain 20 MPH or if (2)the rider is in fourth gear pushing like a mo fo and his feet are barely moving to maintain the same 20 MPH. The HP number factors all of this in to tell you (1) and (2) are equal.:cheer:

Nobody said we were shifting gears. To maintain the 20mph against a greater load means more torque is applied. Torque can be measured directly. It doesn't need RPM's or HP. You stated torque doesn't matter but that's what makes the bike move. You can't increase RPM (with a load present) with our increasing torque (unless you change gears, we're not doing this) You can't just increase HP with out increasing torque or RPM. Your starting with equal horse power and adjusting RPM and torque to match. That's doing the math backwards. You have to start with torque and then RPM that the torque can produce. If a someone pedaling can produce 10HP at 1000rpm under minimal load but that load is doubled and they can no longer produce that 10HP because they don't have the torque to get to 1000RPM. Another guy can produce 10HP at 500 RPM's with minimal load will still be able to produce 10HP at an increased load because he has a lot more torque available to over come the load. That's why high torque low RPM engines pull better than low torque high RPM motors because torque matters in getting and staying at your peak power especially under an increasing load. Isn't web wheeling grand?

 

[Binder]

Nobody said we were shifting gears.

I've said from the beginnin the gear ratio's must be adjusted for comparisons in order to keep whatever power source in it RPM range to make the HP.

To maintain the 20mph against a greater load means more torque is applied. Torque can be measured directly. It doesn't need RPM's or HP.

Yes torque can be measured directly as I've said like 1000 times. HP is a function of torque and RPM

You stated torque doesn't matter but that's what makes the bike move. You can't increase RPM (with a load present) with our increasing torque (unless you change gears, we're not doing this)

Yes we are doing this if you are to do a comparison. Again HP is a function of torque and RPM. If the RPM isn't corect then the HP isn't correct and it's not a straight across comparison.

You can't just increase HP with out increasing torque or RPM.

You're starting to get it!

Your starting with equal horse power and adjusting RPM and torque to match.

That's the whole point of the comparison. To show that X HP is equal to X HP! And it's equal with different torque and RPM!

If a someone pedaling can produce 10HP at 1000rpm under minimal load but that load is doubled and they can no longer produce that 10HP

They're still producing 10 HP but the load is changing. As the load increases it takes more HP to maintain the 10 MPH.

because they don't have the torque to get to 1000RPM. Another guy can produce 10HP at 500 RPM's with minimal load will still be able to produce 10HP at an increased load because he has a lot more torque available to over come the load.

And these two guys are equal at 10 HP! You're starting to get it!

That's why high torque low RPM engines pull better than low torque high RPM motors because torque matters in getting and staying at your peak power especially under an increasing load.

That's why a 10HP engine will pull equal to a 10 HP engine.....Remember it takes specific amount of HP to move a specific load a specific MPH. You can't put a torque number on it without first knowing the RPM....Torque and RPM IS horsepower!

Isn't web wheeling grand?

If I wasn't web wheeling I would be listening to my old lady talk about work......I'm not sure which is worse.:haha:

 

[Binder]

Originally Posted by whatthe?
If a someone pedaling can produce 10HP at 1000rpm under minimal load but that load is doubled and they can no longer produce that 10HP

They're still producing 10 HP but the load is changing. As the load increases it takes more HP to maintain the 10 MPH.

Two identical bicycles/riders are riding side by side doing 10 MPH in the same gear. In order to both be doing the same speed they are both creating/ using the same HP....They come to a hill.....In order to keep doing 10MPH they both need more HP. Rider 1 just pushes harder on the pedals thus creating more torque and as a result creating more HP...Rider two downshifts and exerts even less effort to pedal than he did to maintain 10 HP only now he's pedaling twice as fast and olso creating enough HP to maintain 10 MPH up the hill........Both bikes increased HP, one by increasing torque and the other by incraesing RPM...They are still equal going up the hill.:;

 

[whatthe?]

That's the whole point of the comparison. To show that X HP is equal to X HP! And it's equal with different torque and RPM!
They're still producing 10 HP but the load is changing. As the load increases it takes more HP to maintain the 10 MPH.

And these two guys are equal at 10 HP! You're starting to get it!

That's why a 10HP engine will pull equal to a 10 HP engine.....Remember it takes specific amount of HP to move a specific load a specific MPH. You can't put a torque number on it without first knowing the RPM....Torque and RPM IS horsepower!
:

The two engines will not pull equally. They both have the potential to make 10HP but under a big enough load the engine with more torque will make more HP because the engine with less torque will not be able to generate the RPM's to make it's peak power. You're starting with both engines at max power but they have to get there and that's a function of torque. You stated "as the load increases it take more hp to maintain..." More HP can not be generated because the low torque motor doesn't have enough torque to overcome the added load. That's why the high torque motor can handle a load better. Theoretically it takes a specific amount of HP to move a load but practical application is different. We have an object that takes 300HP to move. We have two motors. One high torque, low RPM, the other, low torque, high RPM. Both have the potential of 301 HP. When attached to this load the low torque motor will never move this object because it wont be able to get to the high RPM were it's peak power is at. The high torque motor will move because it makes more power at low RPM's. Potential power means nothing if you can't get there. The only reason I harp on this because you said torque doesn't matter. Your examples start at both motors making peak power but ignore the fact that they have to get there first. BTW-my wife just went to bed.

 

[whatthe?]

Two identical bicycles/riders are riding side by side doing 10 MPH in the same gear. In order to both be doing the same speed they are both creating/ using the same HP....They come to a hill.....In order to keep doing 10MPH they both need more HP. Rider 1 just pushes harder on the pedals thus creating more torque and as a result creating more HP...Rider two downshifts and exerts even less effort to pedal than he did to maintain 10 HP only now he's pedaling twice as fast and olso creating enough HP to maintain 10 MPH up the hill........Both bikes increased HP, one by increasing torque and the other by incraesing RPM...They are still equal going up the hill.:;

Take this situation and take away the ability to shift gears, one gear only. Both bikers are going 10mph and both are using the same torque but one biker is able to produce more torque. The other more RPM's. They come to a hill. The higher torque biker's RPMs don't change. Speed stays the same. What happens then? If the load is big enough the low torque biker is unable to maintain his speed because he doesn't have enough torque to get his RPM's increased to make more power. Dead horse beat. You're still starting with both examples at peak HP which mathmatically is possible but in practical application they have to get to the peak HP and that is where high torque beats high RPM under a significant load.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

All this theorizing is neat but in my world its complete ****. I'm climbing up the grade out of Dunsmuir CA. I can run up the grade in 7th at just over 1800 rpm doing 30 mph or shift into 8th and climb at 1450 rpm doing 33 mph. Here in the real world my truck is climbing faster at peak torque, not peak hp.


[/thread]


Forget theories and intardnet pecker measuring my truck just answered the debate.

 

[Binder]

Take this situation and take away the ability to shift gears, one gear only. .

That's simple. The idea behind the comparison is that they both make the same HP to go the same speed. If you take away the ability to shift then they would not be making the same power and it's no longer a comparison of two bikes making the same HP.......On a bicvycle the power potebtial is infitite assuming the rider can make it happen. For the bike to go a determined speed takes a determined HP. For the bike to do a faster speed takes a higher HP....The bikes are never at their max HP because there is none....Now same idea with two identical cars-trucks-whatever.....To go 50 MPH reqires X HP. Lets say their at max HP to do 50 MPH then they can go no faster. Car 1 has no more torque to give and car 2 has no more RPM to give because they're already there......In your bike comparison you're saying bike one has more torque to give but bike 2 has no more RPM to give which is not a straight comparison because bike one has a higher max HP than bike 2.
Yes one way to increase HP is increase torque and maintain RPM. And the second way to do it is maintain torque and increase RPM.....Both ways are equal.

HP=torque x RPM / 5252

 

[Binder]

All this theorizing is neat but in my world its complete ****. I'm climbing up the grade out of Dunsmuir CA. I can run up the grade in 7th at just over 1800 rpm doing 30 mph or shift into 8th and climb at 1450 rpm doing 33 mph. Here in the real world my truck is climbing faster at peak torque, not peak hp.


[/thread]


Forget theories and intardnet pecker measuring my truck just answered the debate.

Your truck isn't doing what you think it's doing.:; If what you say is true then your peak HP is closer to 1450 RPM.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

Your truck isn't doing what you think it's doing.:; If what you say is true then your peak HP is closer to 1450 RPM.

Uhhh yea it was doing exactly what I said it was. I don't need any mathematical equation to look at the speedometer and tach while climbing a long steady grade. Max HP for a 435 hp 3406E is right at 1800 rpm and max torque is down between 1200 and 1400 rpm. The proof is in the hills.

I'll agree with you that for light weight race vehicles max HP is essential but when things get heavy that upper rpm HP is just a bragging number because all the towing goes on down low.

 

[whatthe?]

But in my example both bikes are making the same HP at the given speed and then a heavier load is introduced and the bikes are asked to maintain the same speed. The bike that can produce more torque is going to be able to maintain speed. The bike not able to produce more torque will lose speed, he can't increase his HP, he doesn't have the torque to overcome the added load. Max HP doesn't matter if you don't have enough torque to overcome an increasing load to get to get RPM's to max HP. Which is why a high torque low RPM motor will handle a load better than low torque, high RPM motor.

 

[nowires]

Your truck isn't doing what you think it's doing.:; If what you say is true then your peak HP is closer to 1450 RPM.

Oooop.. Hmmmmmmm .......... Ya :haha::hi:

Torque always peaks before HP

Down load this and play with this program

 

[Binder]

Uhhh yea it was doing exactly what I said it was. I don't need any mathematical equation to look at the speedometer and tach while climbing a long steady grade. .

But you need someone to tell you this.

Max HP for a 435 hp 3406E is right at 1800 rpm and max torque is down between 1200 and 1400 rpm.

 

[Binder]

But in my example both bikes are making the same HP at the given speed and then a heavier load is introduced and the bikes are asked to maintain the same speed. The bike that can produce more torque is going to be able to maintain speed. .

The bike able to produce more torque at the same speed (RPM) is increasing HP.

The bike not able to produce more torque will lose speed, he can't increase his HP, he doesn't have the torque to overcome the added load. Max HP doesn't matter if you don't have enough torque to overcome an increasing load to get to get RPM's to max HP. Which is why a high torque low RPM motor will handle a load better than low torque, high RPM motor.

I guess you have to first admit a couple facts to undestand what's going on. First a HP number is a representation of "power" or work done. Do some google searching to read about this. Once you understand this you can then go on to understand that it take a determind amount of HP to move a mass (weight) at a given speed. You can calculate this HP without knowing torque or RPM. It's simply a work being done and an amount of power required to do the work........No torque information required to do any of this....Once you get to this point and you realize you know how much power it takes to move your load all without even thinking of torque you can then visit the concept of torque and maybe understand what it is or is not doing.:cheer:

I don't argue that a typical high torque engine is more suited than a high RPM engine to handle large loads. I've explained this in great detail as well........
What you have to understand is the load will move directly proportionate to the HP curve regardless of the torque curve.:awesomework:

 

[Binder]

Torque always peaks before HP

And that's not contradictory to anything I've written.

 

[Binder]

Binder is a troll....just likes to read himself in print on the interweb

And if you don't like the thread (most likely it's just way over your head) then just fawking leave!:looser:

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

But you need someone to tell you this.

I didn't need anyone to tell me squat. I took what I concider to be common sense that a big diesel pulls up a hill because of its large torque curve that peaks down low and that its peak hp is up towards maximum rpm where it doesn't pull as well 100% of the time.

I used that simplistic knowledge and then googled for the specs and whatta ya know it pulls better at peak torque.

I'm sure you have another way to try and tell me I'm wrong, I'm oh so close to "getting it" blah blah. I'll tell ya this, I get it out here in the real world where theories and equations mean **** and getting to the top of a hill with a load on is what its all about.

 

[whatthe?]

The bike able to produce more torque at the same speed (RPM) is increasing HP.

I guess you have to first admit a couple facts to undestand what's going on. First a HP number is a representation of "power" or work done. Do some google searching to read about this. Once you understand this you can then go on to understand that it take a determind amount of HP to move a mass (weight) at a given speed. You can calculate this HP without knowing torque or RPM. It's simply a work being done and an amount of power required to do the work........No torque information required to do any of this....Once you get to this point and you realize you know how much power it takes to move your load all without even thinking of torque you can then visit the concept of torque and maybe understand what it is or is not doing.:cheer:

I don't argue that a typical high torque engine is more suited than a high RPM engine to handle large loads. I've explained this in great detail as well........
What you have to understand is the load will move directly proportionate to the HP curve regardless of the torque curve.:awesomework:

First, the HP curve is directly related to the torque curve, so the load will move directly in relation to the torque curve. I understand that HP is a measure of power (the ability to do work). Mathmatically you can figure out how much power it takes to move a certain weight at a certain speed. But practicall application is different. Say an object takes 50HP to move. You have a 51HP motor. Mathmatically the object will move. Let's say this motor makes that 51HP at 15,000RPM. The object will never move because the motor will never get to that 15,000 RPM, it will stall under load. If the motor makes 51 HP off idle, the object will move. In application you need to know where the motor makes it's power. Knowing how much HP alone is not enough info.

 

[Binder]

I didn't need anyone to tell me squat. I took what I concider to be common sense that a big diesel pulls up a hill because of its large torque curve that peaks down low and that its peak hp is up towards maximum rpm where it doesn't pull as well 100% of the time.

I used that simplistic knowledge and then googled for the specs and whatta ya know it pulls better at peak torque.

I'm sure you have another way to try and tell me I'm wrong, I'm oh so close to "getting it" blah blah. I'll tell ya this, I get it out here in the real world where theories and equations mean **** and getting to the top of a hill with a load on is what its all about.

What you know is at what PRM your truck pulls the best. In the real world that's all anyone really needs to know. Like I said earlier I don't really care it's just a topic. You read somewhere that your peak torque was at such and such and it happens to be where your truck pulls best. You're relying on what you read on the net to be true when you can use real wold practices to prove it wrong.....
Whatever, it's your truck.:cheer:

 

[Binder]

First, the HP curve is directly related to the torque curve, so the load will move directly in relation to the torque curve..

On what planet? Think about it....

I understand that HP is a measure of power (the ability to do work). Mathmatically you can figure out how much power it takes to move a certain weight at a certain speed. But practicall application is different. ..

What you're refering to is called mathematical proof. Look it up. There's a reason it's called proof and not opinion.:;

Say an object takes 50HP to move. You have a 51HP motor. Mathmatically the object will move. Let's say this motor makes that 51HP at 15,000RPM. The object will never move because the motor will never get to that 15,000 RPM, it will stall under load. If the motor makes 51 HP off idle, the object will move. In application you need to know where the motor makes it's power. Knowing how much HP alone is not enough info.

Again I've said it a couple million times now that the engine must be in it's RPM range where it makes it's power. Simply stating that an engine is producing max power implies that it's in it's power band. If it were not then it wouldn't be producing it's max power would it?
Yes knowing max power alone tells you how fast a weight will accelerate or how much power is needed to move a given weight at a given speed, whichever way you want to look at it..........Again here it is in real time for you.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
If you want it to be a semi truck then put in semi truck weight. If you want it to be a bicycle then put in a bikes weight....It's the same principals involved. If you want it to reflect torque of anything you're **** out of luck because there's no torque input involved.
Go to the link and plug in some numbers and think about it!:awesomework:

 

[Binder]

:beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::corn: