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Binder--> horsepower & torque

Binder said:
For the purpose of comparrisons you have to have all of thos variables equal. HP alone will win races. SHOW me otherwise.:corn:
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Stop playing stupid. I'm agreeing with you that variables non existant hp alone WILL win the race but in the real world it matters

Binder said:
What's the typical gears in a OTR truck? I didn't see them shift (this is key to something I said earlier) , what gear would they have been in?
How much did they weigh? Doesn't need to be a exact number just a good guess is fine...
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If you didn't see them shift you need to see your optometrist. Every time the smoke stopped rolling they were banging a gear. The nearest truck was in 3rd or 4th when it passed the camera.

I'd say those trucks are both running 18 speed trannies for the simple reason they are designed for high power/heavy haul applications. The super 10I run is only rated to 2000 ft lbs. With their triple over 18 speeds they are probably running 3.90's on 24.5 wheels same as I am.

That load was easily 150k if not 200k gross.
 
jeffroadams said:
Seems if those trucks didn't shift then they started in a high gear requiring a lot of torque making up for the gearing making torque essential to the equation
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You're very very close. The torque isn't less essential it's non essential. It doesn't require alot of torque is requires the HP to be at a low RPM.:awesomework: There's more to this also....later...
 
Binder said:
You're very very close. The torque isn't less essential it's non essential. It doesn't require alot of torque is requires the HP to be at a low RPM.:awesomework: There's more to this also....later...
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That makes no sense. If its all about hp why won't my truck climb hills at 1800 rpm where peak hp is rather than falling on its face till 1400 rpm where peak torque is?
 
WHITE TRASH said:
If you didn't see them shift you need to see your optometrist.
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Honestly I didn't look that close. For my point I just needed some input......
I'll break this down ont two posts.....
First I needed a specific gear ratio and I'm not going to look up "tripple over 18 speeds"..whatever....Lets say "just because" the final drive ratio when starting off the line were 60:1 (I don't know if that's even close in reality). 2000 ft lbs at 60:1 gives us 120,000 ft lbs at the wheels. Now I'm assuming that this HUGE 120,000 ft lbs is what's making this truck go down the track right?........For comparison lets take a SBC that makes 150 ft lbs max and place it in that truck. Now we change the final drive ratio to 800:1 making it a HUGE 120,000 ft lbs at the wheels. Which setup do you think would get to the end faster and why? Torque is the same so it should haul ass just as well either way right?:corn:

Next post comming up.......
 
In a hypothetical world you are correct assuming that gasser has 500 gear to get any wheel speed going. But this is the real world and I feel like an idiot for alowing myself to be trolled.
 
Now lets take this same truck at 2000 ft lbs and I'll assume peak HP is about 1800 and torque at about 1400 RPM? We'll have to use the 1400 RPM because I don't know the torque at 1800......1400 RPM and 2000 ft lbs gives it 533 HP. That's 533 HP at a very low RPM!!...Now there's no way a SBC is going to make 533 HP at 1400 RPM. Also for our comparison the SBC made 150 ft lbs so for that same engine to make 533 HP it's going to have to be at a very high RPM probably about 19,500 RPM (this is a guess but no doubt it's very high)....In order to get the SBC in it's HP RPM range in this truck the gears have to be lowered about 10 times to about 600:1.....Now at 600:1 I think we could all agree you're going nowhere real fast.:rolleyes:
THIS IS WHY BIG TRUCKS NEED HIGH HP AT LOW RPM.
Also remember post #25 and "break free torque"? Our SBC with 150 ft lbs at 600:1 is giving us 90,000 ft lbs at the wheels compared to the trucks actual 120,000 ft lbs.
Break free torque is important to start a wheel from a dead stop when there's lots of resistance/ weight holding it stopped.
The low RPM of a big truck also contributes HUGE to fuel economy and longevity of the engine. There are many reasons to tow with a truck and these are only a few....
I do not recommend anyone to tow a trailer with their moms civic!
There's lots of typing here so I hope there's not a bunch of typo's.:rolleyes:
One more post to come.....
 
WHITE TRASH said:
500 gearS sorry 'bout that. I'll disagree with the latter though thanks.
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As in shifting 500 times? If it had to start at 600:1 it would need to shift that many times and probably lose all monentum between shifts....Starting at 60:1 or so at least it would be moving a bit before needing to shift.
 
Binder said:
Our truck pulling 200,000 lbs and having 533 HP would do the quarter mile in 42 seconds at 32 MPH......No torque numbers required to get this.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
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You need the torque number and RPM to get 533HP, although theoretically you can get 533HP and infinite number of ways. HP is a power unit defined by torque and RPM. You can have a low torque motor make a lot of HP at high RPM's or a high torque motor make HP at low RPMs. Say a high torque motor makes 500hp, a low torque motor also make 500HP both would do it at very different RPMs but the power output would be the same, 500HP. You put a load on both motors. The high torque motor is able to hold the RPM's better (it has more twist available to over come resistance or load) than the low torque motor. The low torque motor is more dependent on RPM's to make it's HP and under an increasing load it doesn't have to torque to keep the RPM's up so it loses power (HP). That's why high torque motors work better for heavy loads because they can keep running at optimal power which is reflected by HP.


PS -if that truck made it's 533HP at 13,000 RPM it would never get off the line, it wouldn't have enough torque to get the load moving.
 
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Binder said:
As in shifting 500 times? If it had to start at 600:1 it would need to shift that many times and probably lose all monentum between shifts....Starting at 60:1 or so at least it would be moving a bit before needing to shift.
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I'm saying the GASSER would need massive amounts of gears to gain wheelspeed due to all the reduction. The diesel has so much more raw torque that it doesn't require insane reduction to achieve wheelspeed.

Neither would lose much momentum due to shifting ASSuming the hypothetical driver isn't green and can shift.

I shift on the jake. Run through a gear lift off the throttle slightly as the shifter is headed for the next gear and let up on the throttle completely for just a split second to kick in the exhaust brake. That brings the engine rpms down instantly instead of waiting for the incredibly heavy rotating assembly to slow naturally. If you are good and your timing is correct you can run through the gears of a big truck almost as fast as a gasser.
 
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whatthe? said:
You need the torque number and RPM to get 533HP,.
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Yes and as you wrote after the torque number can vary infinately to get the same HP.....Yet only a HP number is needed for calculations.:;


whatthe? said:
PS -if that truck made it's 533HP at 13,000 RPM it would never get off the line, it wouldn't have enough torque to get the load moving.
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Did you even read what I wrote or are you just somehow trying to agree?
 
WHITE TRASH said:
I'm saying the GASSER would need massive amounts of gears to gain wheelspeed due to all the reduction. The diesel has so much more raw torque that it doesn't require insane reduction to achieve wheelspeed.

Neither would lose much momentum due to shifting ASSuming the hypothetical driver isn't green and can shift.

I shift on the jake. Run through a gear lift off the throttle slightly as the shifter is headed for the next gear and let up on the throttle completely for just a split second to kick in the exhaust brake. That brings the engine rpms down instantly instead of waiting for the incredibly heavy rotating assembly to slow naturally. If you are good and your timing is correct you can run through the gs of a big truck almost as fast as a gasser.
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At 600:1 none of that matters. It would be moving so slow that it would stop instantly when power was reduced.

Red.....And I thought we were getting somewhere.:booo: Torque at the motor matters not past break free torque (at the wheels)-once it's moving. The big diesel gains wheel speed because it has HP at very low RPM. This is what lets it not have to be geared super low.
 
Binder said:
Yes and as you wrote after the torque number can vary infinately to get the same HP.....Yet only a HP number is needed for calculations.:;


Did you even read what I wrote or are you just somehow trying to agree?
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I'm saying the calculations wouldn't work because the truck would never get started if it made it's peak HP at 13,000 RPM's. Torque matters because it get's things moving. This same type of debate has been going on a long time in the shooting world. Which is more important-bullet weight or speed with the end result being energy (power) You can make a light bullet have as much energy as a heavy one by adding speed. The answer is what are you trying to kill? If it's a bird a light bullet, traveling fast is ideal but if it's a bear most would opt for a heavy bullet that is traveling slower even though both could have the same energy. Sound similar?
 
At this point this subject has been disected and regurgitated about as many ways as it possibly can be.
I'll just relist a couple facts and either people will get it or they won't. It doesn't matter unless you plan to build something where these principals come into play...

1st. This is a fact. HP = Torque x RPM
 
Torque at the motor matters not past break free torque (at the wheels)-once it's moving. The big diesel gains wheel speed because it has HP at very low RPM. This is what lets it not have to be geared super low.[/QUOTE]


It has a lot of HP at low RPM's because it has a lot of torque at low RPMs. Torque is necessary to make RPM's both of which are needed to make HP.
 
whatthe? said:
Torque matters because it get's things moving.
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Please see fact number two above.


whatthe? said:
This same type of debate has been going on a long time in the shooting world. Which is more important-bullet weight or speed with the end result being energy (power) You can make a light bullet have as much energy as a heavy one by adding speed. The answer is what are you trying to kill? If it's a bird a light bullet, traveling fast is ideal but if it's a bear most would opt for a heavy bullet that is traveling slower even though both could have the same energy. Sound similar?
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Simillar but not the same. You're comparing weight (mass) and velocity to HP and torque. Both weight and velocity can be defined on their own without the other. HP and torque are different in that you can have torque by itself but you can't have HP without torque (when pertaining to a rotating wheel).
 
whatthe? said:
It has a lot of HP at low RPM's because it has a lot of torque at low RPMs. Torque is necessary to make RPM's both of which are needed to make HP.
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Then maybe it will make sence if I ask you this? Why does it need HP at all? Why not just torque being that's what "gets it moving"?
 

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