CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
So I can go nice and slow maybe? I didn't make any reference to ring/pinion BTW, just your ridiculous statement that engine torque negates the need for low gearing.
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CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
I ran chevys for ten years with 4.11 gears and v8s and 40 inch tires with a 4 speed. worked fine. more torque = lower engine speed.:awesomework:
I then started building toyotas and with 5.29 gears, they still need help. no torque = higher engine speed.:booo:
please crusty jeep god explain why this makes no sense. please enlighten me.:corn:
right now I am putting a v8 in my toyota and will be changing the 5.29s out for some stock 4.10 gears, they are stronger. I doubt I will notice the difference. with the rpms so much lower to get the same power.:;
get your gearing from the gear boxes. keep the axles simple and cheap. we dont live at the hammers there are mud and snow around here. too much hype has been made about super low gearing. Ive seen more broke parts from people binding up a rig and the gearing is so low it breaks something. back up, jam over it,**** crawling it. :cheer:
just my 4.11 cents worth.:fawkdancesmiley:
Damnyankee
Well-Known Member
Um... i said, if you have a good healthy V8 with lots of torque i would go with the stronger components. Do some research on what is stronger 4.88 or 5:38's.
and as
chop shop said, its all about the power at what RPM's
Get a good torque multiplier in there and watch axles go BOOM.
I can bust D44 alloys all day long with a 3.0L just because i have TOO much torque with my gearing.
If you have unlimited money to replace gears after every outing go right ahead and put whatever you want in there. **** go lower. But there is a time when to much torque is NO good.
Metalbender
-=WTF=-
I like the Like the K.I.S.S method.
My personal opinion is to keep the axles simple and cost effective. I like to be at least 100:1 on a manual transmission, and if you can get there with gear reduction at the tranny and T case. The more gearing options you have for more type of terrain, especially if you have a V8.
My personal opinion is to keep the axles simple and cost effective. I like to be at least 100:1 on a manual transmission, and if you can get there with gear reduction at the tranny and T case. The more gearing options you have for more type of terrain, especially if you have a V8.
CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
You also said this...
Engine torque has about nothing to do with the need to go SLOOOOW.
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
dude sometimes your head is in your ASS.:looser:
if I drive my toyota at 3000 rpm with 4.11 gears and it goes 50mph, then swap the squirrels for a v8 with torque and drive at 1500 rpm it will go 25 mph.
seems i have lowered my SPEED without changing gears only TORQUE.:awesomework:
Your diesel has higher gears (lower numerically) than most gassers because of it's working torque range. 4 cyls have a much higher torque curve and require much more rpm (and lower gears).
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CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
I do believe you missed it. My diesel tow rig has about the same crawl ratio as my **** box, and enough wheel torque to turn itself inside out. Why? SO IT CAN GO SLOW!
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
wtf:eeek: yer dum
Cascade_Crawler
Well-Known Member
My point was that it has an overall lower drive ratio.
Cascade_Crawler
Well-Known Member
explain. Id like to see you wheel a 4 speed with 40s and 411s and actually be able to go slow and crawl. if your mud boggin in a field that totally different. When you wheel you need to be able to crawl.
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
if you need to crawl thats fine. I said nothing about boggin. I was using some crap numbers I made up to compare RMPs, torque curve placement, and different speeds becaused crusty said torque had nothing to do gearing (the neeeed to go slooooowwwww) as he put it.
take said under powered rig with 4.11 gears and 40 inch tires = crappy crawl ratio, would eat clutches, etc.
now take said rig, swap for a v8, keep 4.11 gears 40 inch tires =same crappy crawl ratio, doesnt eat clutches goes better and slower because of the torque being placed at a lower RPM=more useable power.
still same rig. same gears . same tires, now swap for a diesel. even more useable power and slower speeds. LOWER TORQE CURVE PLACEMENT of all three.
starting to see a trend here, huh?
What if I want to go slower than the slowest speed I could go with the engine idling, in 1st gear, low range? It's certainly possible to wheel with big tires, 4.10's and no reduction in the t-case... but it's pretty hard on the rest of the rig when you have to slam it through all the obstacles at full throttle because you don't have the gearing to maneuver a tricky spot without killing the engine or the clutch.
V8 or 4 cylinder plays a small part in it, but there's more to it than that. Yes the V8 probably has more torque in the lower rpm range, but "more torque" only gets you so far when you're talking about comparing it to a 100:1 or so final drive ratio. I'll take an anemic 4 cylinder low geared rig any day over a V8 with no reduction.
And for the record, I run a stock 231 t-case behind an AX-15 and a 4.0L, and 5.13 gears. It's not slow enough for some stuff, even with the torque of the inline six 4.0L. I am not worried about the strength of the ring and pinions. Down the road, when I finally get around to putting the front 60 I have in and either a 60 or 14 bolt for the rear, I will initially stick with the 4.10 gears, but I will be either buying an atlas or doing a doubler of some sort.
V8 or 4 cylinder plays a small part in it, but there's more to it than that. Yes the V8 probably has more torque in the lower rpm range, but "more torque" only gets you so far when you're talking about comparing it to a 100:1 or so final drive ratio. I'll take an anemic 4 cylinder low geared rig any day over a V8 with no reduction.
And for the record, I run a stock 231 t-case behind an AX-15 and a 4.0L, and 5.13 gears. It's not slow enough for some stuff, even with the torque of the inline six 4.0L. I am not worried about the strength of the ring and pinions. Down the road, when I finally get around to putting the front 60 I have in and either a 60 or 14 bolt for the rear, I will initially stick with the 4.10 gears, but I will be either buying an atlas or doing a doubler of some sort.
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TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
Spoken like someone who's never wheeled a V8.
For general, all around wheeling, I'll take a V8 with a three speed tranny (no granny gear) and a 2.0 to 1 tcase. I've got a couple years wheeling that settup with great success.
That said, I'd rather have all of the above, and, so I happen to.
You know what they say when you assume.
I have wheeled many rigs other than my own, including ones that have V8's, 6 cylinders, 4 cylinders and all combinations of stock gears and lower gears. Yeah a V8 is nice, and my rig will certainly have one in some flavor or another when I have a good reason to yank out a perfectly running 4.0L. Maybe CHOP SHOP's and your wheeling style is different than mine, but lower gears is farther up on my list than "more torque". Having both is definitely a plus... having useable options to go as fast or slow as you want is even better.
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CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
I've wheeled a V8, and I wheeled pretty much that exact set up for more than two years. I hated it. The clutch died a horrible death, and I'm good with a clutch. I was constantly killing it trying to lug over things when I should have been crawling, or bouncing over things when I should have been crawling, or lurching over things when I should have been crawling. It was a dumb sucky set up that I'm glad to say has, by now, been recycled into a beautiful new H3 or something.
But according to CHOPPY, that set up was ideal.
CrustyJeep
Well-Known Member
He can't. He's too smrt to explain at our dumb peoples' level :rofl:
What is missing here is reference to torque and where that torque occurs in the power band. I-6 cyl usually have high torque very low in the RPM band. That torque however, falls off quickly as RPM increases. V-8's of the same CID usually have a little less torque but it is held over a broader range. Camshaft profiles and bore/stroke can change torque curve but a motor with a broad torque range is the best possible choice for wheeling.
I've had rigs with many different ranges of horsepower and a good motor and an auto tranny makes up for 'bad' gearing.
Even the term bad gearing is open for debate. I take my rigs to many different areas and wheel various different types of terrain. I'll guarantee that the 200-1 geared 4 cyl rigs would absolutely hate some of the places I wheel(sand dunes, mud). At the same time, a small V-8 with a 3 sp manual would suck other places(rocks). That's why it's so important to build a balanced vehicle. Lots of good, usable horsepower is a huge advantage as well as having an auto tranny, IMO. If I had to have a manual tranny again, I'd go with an Atlas 4 speed T-case behind it. That way I could still have a good low gear for normal trail running but a deep low for when I did rocks. Even then, I'd want a decent motor with a broad power band.
For me personally, it's better to have a rig that's good at many things than having a rig that's great at only one type of wheeling.
I've had rigs with many different ranges of horsepower and a good motor and an auto tranny makes up for 'bad' gearing.
Even the term bad gearing is open for debate. I take my rigs to many different areas and wheel various different types of terrain. I'll guarantee that the 200-1 geared 4 cyl rigs would absolutely hate some of the places I wheel(sand dunes, mud). At the same time, a small V-8 with a 3 sp manual would suck other places(rocks). That's why it's so important to build a balanced vehicle. Lots of good, usable horsepower is a huge advantage as well as having an auto tranny, IMO. If I had to have a manual tranny again, I'd go with an Atlas 4 speed T-case behind it. That way I could still have a good low gear for normal trail running but a deep low for when I did rocks. Even then, I'd want a decent motor with a broad power band.
For me personally, it's better to have a rig that's good at many things than having a rig that's great at only one type of wheeling.
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CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
this is the only statement that i was refering to. just his statement about torque vs gearing.
I never once shot down crawl boxes, dual cases, 4to1 gears, etc. just because i have a mudder does not mean I have never been on the rocks/trails. I sold my turbo dual case toy setup in favor of running a 465 to toyota dual case setup. I agree that low gears are needed no matter what driving style, even if you drive like an ass.
I expected a response from crusty, but damn I aint hatin on low gears:beer:
