gearing questions?

[CrustyJeep]

a small V-8 with a 3 sp manual would suck other places(rocks). ... good low gear for normal trail running but a deep low for when I did rocks.

You get it. Now, if you could explain that very difficult concept to CHOPPY, kthxbye

 

[CHOP SHOP]

What is missing here is reference to torque and where that torque occurs in the power band. I-6 cyl usually have high torque very low in the RPM band. That torque however, falls off quickly as RPM increases. V-8's of the same CID usually have a little less torque but it is held over a broader range. Camshaft profiles and bore/stroke can change torque curve but a motor with a broad torque range is the best possible choice for wheeling.
I've had rigs with many different ranges of horsepower and a good motor and an auto tranny makes up for 'bad' gearing.
Even the term bad gearing is open for debate. I take my rigs to many different areas and wheel various different types of terrain. I'll guarantee that the 200-1 geared 4 cyl rigs would absolutely hate some of the places I wheel(sand dunes, mud). At the same time, a small V-8 with a 3 sp manual would suck other places(rocks). That's why it's so important to build a balanced vehicle. Lots of good, usable horsepower is a huge advantage as well as having an auto tranny, IMO. If I had to have a manual tranny again, I'd go with an Atlas 4 speed T-case behind it. That way I could still have a good low gear for normal trail running but a deep low for when I did rocks. Even then, I'd want a decent motor with a broad power band.
For me personally, it's better to have a rig that's good at many things than having a rig that's great at only one type of wheeling.

x2 :awesomework:

or just buid a different rig for each place:redneck:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

You get it. Now, if you could explain that very difficult concept to CHOPPY, kthxbye

pretty sure I was saying the same thing he said.

I just couldnt spell it out any easier for ya. I dont see how my comparison is any different.:booo:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

In response to the threads origanal question.
you dont have many choices when dealing with a cj. unless being comp cut it is limmited.

with the lengh your dealing with you can only get lower transfer case gears, (I think) and axle gears. I would go as low as I could safely with the axle.

my preference is a dual case setup. with doubler gears in one case if needed.
hardly ever have I put a truck in 4HI unless driving the hiway in snow with a DD. 4HI is worthless in a beater. 4LO is great for mud, snow, sand, gravel/loose stuff and the trail. 4LO LO is great for rocks, roots, logs technical stuff.

but it sucks ass to be stuck behind some dude with 6 to 1 gears in a four banger that wont pull hi range, so all its got is SLOW. not all the trail is tough or technical.:flipoff:

 

[Digger 5]

After reading Choppy's comments I decided to go back and look at the original post again.
If I had to council you I'd recommend you get a different rig. BEFORE you spend a ton and end up with something other than you really want.
To use a 14 bolt and not furrow the ground enough to plant a crop, you'll need 37's, at least, and taller would be even better. 14B's have crap ground clearance are not usually used on a rig with smallish tires.
So, figure 37's. To get enough lift you'll need to really drop your t-case to make a driveshaft work well(and forget about dual cases or a Klune). Now your belly clearance sucks. The biggest advantage my current Jeeps have over my old CJ 5 is belly clearance. Where my old CJ would get hung up, my current Jeeps slide right over.
To do what you really want/need, you'll need more wheelbase. You could stretch and link the 5 but you'd be better off with a better starter rig. Don't misunderstand me, a CJ-5 is a great starting point for many different types of wheeling, but trying you use one with a 14B is going to be a load of work.

 

[Dents]

OK the jeep has a 304 with a 2 barrel the t18 4 speed it is comp cut the wheel base is 94 is gonna be stretched to 104 ish 14 bolt rear 60 front hydro assist in decision on weather to go 4 to 1 in the tcase and stay 410 in the diffs or 513 in the diffs and leave the tcase alone:beer:

 

[CrustyJeep]

OK the jeep has a 304 with a 2 barrel the t18 4 speed it is comp cut the wheel base is 94 is gonna be stretched to 104 ish 14 bolt rear 60 front hydro assist in decision on weather to go 4 to 1 in the tcase and stay 410 in the diffs or 513 in the diffs and leave the tcase alone:beer:

I would do the case. More bang for the buck.

But first I'd get rid of that carb. If you have a Dana300, granny T18, and 4.11, you have about 70:1, which is what we have. It works good enough to take lower priority than FI/propane, IMO.


Edit: Wait, what? You have a Dana20? Where would you get 4:1's for a Dana20? I change my story. I would not mod that case. I would toss it in favor of a 300 or Atlas. And I still say do that before axles.

 

[Cascade_Crawler]

now take said rig, swap for a v8, keep 4.11 gears 40 inch tires =same crappy crawl ratio, doesnt eat clutches goes better and slower because of the torque being placed at a lower RPM=more useable power.

still same rig. same gears . same tires, now swap for a diesel. even more useable power and slower speeds. LOWER TORQE CURVE PLACEMENT of all three.

starting to see a trend here, huh?

Sure ya got more torque but can you really go that much slower and still have usable power? No I dont think so. Once you lug down that much your out of the engines "power band" and its not making the "more torque" that you swapped it in for. You need that lower gearing so you can go slower and still be in the usable RPM range. It will idle and chug away at a low RPM, but your speed will be dictated to your final drive ratio. That is all based on if you want to be able to crawl, normal trail riding like stated above doesn't require that low gearing. This was just based off of my interpretation of your post as more torque = go slower.

 

[Digger 5]

OK the jeep has a 304 with a 2 barrel the t18 4 speed it is comp cut the wheel base is 94 is gonna be stretched to 104 ish 14 bolt rear 60 front hydro assist in decision on weather to go 4 to 1 in the tcase and stay 410 in the diffs or 513 in the diffs and leave the tcase alone:beer:

A CJ-5 has a wheelbase of 84" not 94". Since you're using 37's and already plan a major stretch, don't regear your diffs but plan on a atlas 4 speed. The 5.4 unit should be perfect as it has 2.0, 2.7 and 5.4 gearing. You'll use 2.7 most of the time, 5.4 on the rocks and 2.0 in the sand and mud.

 

[Digger 5]

I would do the case. More bang for the buck.

But first I'd get rid of that carb. If you have a Dana300, granny T18, and 4.11, you have about 70:1, which is what we have. It works good enough to take lower priority than FI/propane, IMO.

I'd almost argue with you about the carb. My motorcraft worked perfectly, almost as good as FI.

 

[Binder]

Most of you guys are confusing torque and horse power. Using torque and powerband in the same sentance is confusing as their two different things.

:stirpot:

 

[CrustyJeep]

Using torque and powerband in the same sentance is confusing as their two different things.

Nuh uh :flipoff:

It would be more correct to say "torque band", but that would have confused CHOPPY and the rest of us knew what he meant :flipoff:

 

[Binder]

Nuh uh :flipoff:

It would be more correct to say "torque band"

Depends on the reference your using. Most of this thread has been comparing V8 to squirel power in which power band would for the most part be the correct term. When your talking about breaking parts torque is correct but at what RPM doesn't really matter, just peak torque.

 

[TreeClimber]

You know what they say when you assume.



I have wheeled many rigs other than my own, including ones that have V8's, 6 cylinders, 4 cylinders and all combinations of stock gears and lower gears. Yeah a V8 is nice, and my rig will certainly have one in some flavor or another when I have a good reason to yank out a perfectly running 4.0L. .

Matthew, Matthew, Matthew,,,,,

Firstly I never said you had or hadn't a V8. I simply said it was spoken like you hadn't. And sure enough, you didn't. :haha: own one. Oh, yeah, you can claim to have driven one... but you didn't own one now did you?

And I'll stand behind my claim. I would rather own a V8 with lousy gears, than a pathetic 4 popper with all the gears in the world. Years ago, we had a three of us that regularly wheeled together. Digger5 had a CJ with an I6 and T18. I had a V8 and a T15. And my buddy Ken had a 4cyl, with T18 and lots of low gear. We all went the same trails. It's just a matter of choice. And for hills, trails, mud, sand, and most wheeling, a V8 with lousy gears will work great, and I never hit the rev limiter. How often do you bounce off of 6K?

Of course, now, all of us have strong motors and gears.

 

[Dents]

ok right now it has a wheelbase of 94 inches ,comp cut with dana44's front and rear 456 locked hydro assist ,flatop knukles and 38's. I have a 14bolt with 410's and a 60 front with 410's that are going under it soon now the question is after its stretched to 104ish do i stay with the 410's and do something about the t case via dana 300 with 4 to 1 or leave the dana 20 with bronco gears and change the r&p to 513's :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

 

[Damnyankee]

If you put 5.13's in your D60, Have bobby cryo them.. then they might hold up. The 5:13's are TINY!

 

[CrustyJeep]

for hills, trails, mud, sand, and most wheeling, a V8 with lousy gears will work great

Mud and sand, who cares :flipoff: And you forgot rocks. The first rock you come to will make that lousy geared V8 rig cry for mercy. I prefer rocks to mud and sand, so there ya go :;

 

[Digger 5]

Matthew, Matthew, Matthew,,,,,

Firstly I never said you had or hadn't a V8. I simply said it was spoken like you hadn't. And sure enough, you didn't. :haha: own one. Oh, yeah, you can claim to have driven one... but you didn't own one now did you?

And I'll stand behind my claim. I would rather own a V8 with lousy gears, than a pathetic 4 popper with all the gears in the world. Years ago, we had a three of us that regularly wheeled together. Digger5 had a CJ with an I6 and T18. I had a V8 and a T15. And my buddy Ken had a 4cyl, with T18 and lots of low gear. We all went the same trails. It's just a matter of choice. And for hills, trails, mud, sand, and most wheeling, a V8 with lousy gears will work great, and I never hit the rev limiter. How often do you bounce off of 6K?

Of course, now, all of us have strong motors and gears.

Tony-
Actually you brain farted on this one, but it still backs up your point. Our 3 rigs went the same places most of the time, but Ken changed to a V6 because his 4 didn't have enough HP to make some of the hill climbs and he couldn't keep up. Everywhere else he was pretty good with the 4 cyl, but on the long loose hills he had to drag out the winch.

 

[Cascade_Crawler]

If you put 5.13's in your D60, Have bobby cryo them.. then they might hold up. The 5:13's are TINY!

how long do you think my 538s will last?

 

[CrustyJeep]

how long do you think my 538s will last?

If you go all Wildman on them, maybe a week :haha: