Manastash meadows up by the rocks.

[dirk]

Right at that left is the start of the most serious damage. Someone has knocked over the sign (which was old/obscured) and gone on thru into a sensitive area (some of you may remember this area which was hnown as "The Gunhole"). The "Gunhole" was closed years ago due to the sensitive nature of the area. The damaged area is not directly in the "Gunhole" Area but very near it. The damage is fresh within the last couple of weeks. It is not possible to confuse this newly damaged area as the trail.

I remember this area...didn't they closed it up around 1995...the trail used to hang right, then left up through the trees...in the trees was a very wet spot (the gunhole I assume), then up through the meadow & then hard right on what is the trail today.

The other damaged areas are below this area and it looks like someone possibly got bored with the lack of challenge in this section of trail and decided to make a bypass. This is a double track vehicle that traversed up and did not get thru. This damaged section would present a challenge to anyvehicle except a very capable rig.

The other section that was damaged is purely a bypass established to avoid a snowbank that could not be navigated easily. To most people this snowbank would of turned them back. Which should mean the trail is not passable (ie: closed). But instead somebody decided causing this sort of damage was more important than respecting the trail and respecting the legitimate users rights.

Comes down to "Stay on the Trail or Stay Home".

So of the 4 pics posted, how many of them were up to the right near the Gunhole section? It sounds like most of the damage was in an area that wasn't even part of the legitimate trail system.

 

[Binder]

It is not possible to confuse this newly damaged area as the trail.

How do you figure this? If there's a thin coat of snow on the ground as there probably was at the time this happened it's hard to tell if the trail goes right or left around a tree for example. Much of this could have been a honest mistake.
The part that's not a honest mistake is the part where a LEO ASSUMES a buggy did this. That's not a mistake it's straight up BULLSHIT!

 

[Murkman]

I remember this area...didn't they closed it up around 1995...the trail used to hang right, then left up through the trees...in the trees was a very wet spot (the gunhole I assume), then up through the meadow & then hard right on what is the trail today.



So of the 4 pics posted, how many of them were up to the right near the Gunhole section? It sounds like most of the damage was in an area that wasn't even part of the legitimate trail system.

No I believe the "Gunhole" was closed about 2000 or so. It used to be a blast to go thru there. There was a wall of roots that only the most lucky could make it up. The area was put to bed and you can hardly tell it use to be a trail.



All of the pic's are from the same damage area. We took pic's at the start of the damage and worked our way up to where "whoever" (small group maybe as many as three rigs) turned around.

We did not get pic's of the other areas (2).

 

[Turtle Bite]

Could you tell what kind of tires they were from the tracks? Iroks, Krawlers, Pitbulls?

 

[dirk]

If you leave Manastash Campground on the 4W307 and head towards Tripod. You go thru the woods. Enter an area of younger trees and start on an old logging road that was ripped turning it into a trail. Follow thru and you will come to where the trail y's to the right is up a short rockface to the left bypass's the rock face.

Isn't there a hard right at the end of the first section of ripped logging road? The hard right takes you into a couple holes/ledges immediately after the right turn...eventually the trail smooths out. This last Memorial Day weekend, I remember seeing a bypass that short cutted the brief difficult section.

Is this one of the damaged sections you are referring to? If so, the tracks on the bypass did not look like a 4x4 rig...they were very narrow & the tread pattern looked like a quad or side-by-side (rhino). My group was able to just idle up the difficult section, but I can see how a quad or side-by-side might not have enough clearance to easily navigate this 15 foot section of the trail.

By the way...the rock face section you describe is a great part of the trail & I run it everytime I pass through there...up or down hill. I even used to drive it with my old CJ7, but the new rig definitely takes some of the pucker factor out of it. :haha: If this part of the trail is officially closed, then how is that conveyed to the user? There is no sign that marks it closed...so how are we supposed to know?

Thanks for taking the time to explain :beer:

 

[Murkman]

How do you figure this? If there's a thin coat of snow on the ground as there probably was at the time this happened it's hard to tell if the trail goes right or left around a tree for example. Much of this could have been a honest mistake.
The part that's not a honest mistake is the part where a LEO ASSUMES a buggy did this. That's not a mistake it's straight up BULLSHIT!

You mean to tell me you can not tell where a trail is. Honest mistake? If you are in an area where you are not sure where the trail is, I would suggest getting out of the rig and do a little scouting. If you are still unsure turn around and leave. Best to not cause this type of damage. Just come back another day. Why give the LEO a reason to impose restrictions.



In this area where the trail goes is very obvious.

 

[PUO-BANNED]

I was with Mikki on sunday and we talked about this very subject and yes she is sure is was buggy type rigs. They see this all the time and have learned what makes what kinds of tracks.

That is complete and utter bullshit :looser:

I would like to know exactly how she came to that conclusion

 

[dirk]

No I believe the "Gunhole" was closed about 2000 or so. It used to be a blast to go thru there. There was a wall of roots that only the most lucky could make it up.

That sounds about right...I just remember that it was closed off sometime during my college years.

The area was put to bed and you can hardly tell it use to be a trail.

This is an interesting comment...you are saying that the area has recovered & returned to its natural beauty. The opposition always makes us out to be monsters that are causing permanent damage to the land. Doesn't really sound too permanent to me.

All of the pic's are from the same damage area. We took pic's at the start of the damage and worked our way up to where "whoever" (small group maybe as many as three rigs) turned around.

We did not get pic's of the other areas (2).

Is the theory...that there was snow on the ground when these tracks were made? Or do you (& Mikki) think that the damage was caused by someone blatantly driving off into a meadow? Sounds to me like someone should have known they were off trail.

 

[Binder]

You mean to tell me you can not tell where a trail is. Honest mistake?

Yes I'm saying it can and does happen. In the uncut snow if you aren't familliar with a trail it's easy to get slightly off of the trail. May or may not be the case here.

 

[dirk]

I would like to know exactly how she came to that conclusion

I already sent her an email asking a few friendly questions...I will let you know if I hear anything. :beer:

 

[dirk]

Yes I'm saying it can and does happen. In the uncut snow if you aren't familliar with a trail it's easy to get slightly off of the trail. May or may not be the case here.

And this is where Murkman is going to tell you that if you can't find the trail, then you are supposed to turn around.

:eeek:

Back to Murkman (or anyone else that wants to jump in)...

Why can't we get a few diamond reflectors nailed every few trees...kinda like what the snowmobile crowd has? I am not asking to put one on each side of the trail & exactly define the trail corridor. I am just talking about putting a few up to help folks that don't know exactly where to go. I am very familiar with what the trails look like in the summer & have no trouble following the trail in the snow. In the past I have had to get out & scout out the proper route (diamonds would have really made life easier). I could see these even being handy in the dry season...how is a new user to the trail supposed to know what is bypass & legitimate trail?

Keep in mind, a buggy is not the ultimate end-all-be-all rig...my fully locked full body CJ7 got around just fine in the snow. I didn't/don't need a buggy to tear the trail up. :eeek:

 

[Murkman]

Yes I'm saying it can and does happen. In the uncut snow if you aren't familliar with a trail it's easy to get slightly off of the trail. May or may not be the case here.

This is not a case of being slightly off the trail. This appears deliberate. And still the fact remains "You must stay on the trail".

 

[PUO-BANNED]

That is the most ignorant thing I've read on this board all day.

I don't care who Mikki is, I guarantee that they could not tell the difference between "buggy type rig" tracks and "4x4" tracks. Just how is that possible without seeing the vehicle?

Tell me Jim, in your's & Mikki's vast wheeling experience, what do buggy tracks look like as compared to Toyota SAS & IFS, CJ, YJ, XJ, Blazer, S10, Dakota, RAM, Suburban, Tahoe, Ranger, F-150, FJ, JK, etc...

I've only been wheeling since I was 19 so please, educate me.

I love you "old timers" that can't get your minds kick started to see that there is something past a short wheelbased stock rig :awesomework:

You won't get a real answer to that because they have none.
I would like to see that BS hold up in court "Uh I seen a buggy leave tracks like this before so it had to be a buggy" :haha:

I already sent her an email asking a few friendly questions...I will let you know if I hear anything. :beer:

I cannot wait for the response. :cheer: I would like to hear her defenition of a "buggy" and how they all leave the same style of tracks.

THink of all the variables involved in determining what vehicle left those tracks :eeek: wheel base, axle width, wheel spacers, wheel offset, tire construction, weight, etc. You may be able to make out tire models by the track they leave but how do you determine the exact type of vehicle they are on?

**** I bet she knows how much change you have in your pocket based on the footprint you leave :haha:

 

[nevada]

WHO is mikki? and why is she not here herself to explain wtf is going on?

 

[Money Mark]

I still think it was a Jeep type vehicle......I see these types of tracks all the time. Believe me...

 

[Murkman]

And this is where Murkman is going to tell you that if you can't find the trail, then you are supposed to turn around.

Back to Murkman (or anyone else that wants to jump in)...

Why can't we get a few diamond reflectors nailed every few trees...kinda like what the snowmobile crowd has? I am not asking to put one on each side of the trail & exactly define the trail corridor. I am just talking about putting a few up to help folks that don't know exactly where to go. I am very familiar with what the trails look like in the summer & have no trouble following the trail in the snow. In the past I have had to get out & scout out the proper route (diamonds would have really made life easier). I could see these even being handy in the dry season...how is a new user to the trail supposed to know what is bypass & legitimate trail?

Keep in mind, a buggy is not the ultimate end-all-be-all rig...my fully locked full body CJ7 got around just fine in the snow. I didn't/don't need a buggy to tear the trail up. :eeek:

You know me well!!

The type project you mention is not out of the question. Takes a club or an association to step up. Apply for a grant (Mikki will help). Then you have a timeline to do the work.

Liberty was resigned a few years ago using this process. You might have to wait for a lawsuit to be settled and/or wait till funds become available again.

Education may be the answer to getting the begining wheeler to make the correct choice. Trail maintaence will also help this problem. According to trail standards bypass's are not allowed. There can be only one path. That path can be determined as to how hard a trail is. On a hard trail the most difficult path is most likely the correct path. On an easy trail the easy path is the correct one. If your vehicle can not pass thru the hard section turn around and leave. Find another lesser rated trail.

 

[Mark m.]

I still think it was a Jeep type vehicle......I see these types of tracks all the time. Believe me...

:stirpot::stirpot:

 

[PUO-BANNED]

This is not a case of being slightly off the trail. This appears deliberate. And still the fact remains "You must stay on the trail".

WE UNDERSTAND THAT! What I want to know is how you and/or your supervisor know it was a buggy?

If it was clamied to be a toyota/jeep/ford/chev/dodge whatever I would be asking the same question.

 

[Money Mark]

If your vehicle can not pass thru the hard section turn around and leave. Find another lesser rated trail.

You mentioned this a few times now. I have NO faith in a group or individual respecting this.

I'm sure you do.

More power, to the strength of belief.:awesomework:

 

[CentralGrand]

What if I said I knew it wasn't buggies... for a fact.