Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

redneckengineered · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

TBItoy said:
Who has rebuildable unit bearings for the larger 05+ style ?

I know Spidertrax has 99-04 size "Ultimate Unit Bearing", but I haven't seen anything about a rebuildable larger 05+ size.

And yes, I believe the unit bearings are going to eventually become the standard... I also think that EVENTUALLY because of that, 8x170 will become much more prolific in the performance aftermarket than it is now.

Many/most offroaders are heavily invested (either monetarily or mentally) into the 14 bolt platform, so I think that's kind of kept the 8x6.5 as a standard for longer.

I've heard that the stock 05+ unit bearings are rebuildable. That's just what I heard, can't say for sure. I know I read that somewhere though. I also "heard" that Spidertrax is working on their own version. No timeline though.

TBItoy · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

redneckengineered said:
I've heard that the stock 05+ unit bearings are rebuildable. That's just what I heard, can't say for sure. I know I read that somewhere though. I also "heard" that Spidertrax is working on their own version. No timeline though.

The one's I've laid hands on weren't.

They arent' even able to be disassembled like the 99-04. The back of the bearing is like a big swaged/roll formed retainer.

redneckengineered · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

TBItoy said:
The one's I've laid hands on weren't.

They arent' even able to be disassembled like the 99-04. The back of the bearing is like a big swaged/roll formed retainer.

I guess you're right then. A rebuildable Spidertrax version with 8x6.5 would be badass and worth the coin I bet. I'd be tempted to cut the spindles off my rear axle for that.

TBItoy · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

redneckengineered said:
I guess you're right then. A rebuildable Spidertrax version with 8x6.5 would be badass and worth the coin I bet. I'd be tempted to cut the spindles off my rear axle for that.

****, if you are going to drink the UB Kool Aid that hard, Might as well drink the whole damn jug and get some 8x170 wheels too. That way you can run off the shelf parts. :****:

Kevin Yoder even said in that thread on pirate that part of his reasoning behind using the Reid Super knuckles was stock 05+ $242/ea Timkin UBs vs $600/ea rebuildable Spidertrax units.

I'm envisioning a "40 spline rear axle builder kit" with a 14b 40 spline spool, 40 spline double spline shafts, weld-on 05+ SD unit bearing cups, and a set of 40 spline drive slugs. Let the customer source the unit bearings & brakes.

redneckengineered · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

TBItoy said:
****, if you are going to drink the UB Kool Aid that hard, Might as well drink the whole damn jug and get some 8x170 wheels too. That way you can run off the shelf parts. :****:

Kevin Yoder even said in that thread on pirate that part of his reasoning behind using the Reid Super knuckles was stock 05+ $242/ea Timkin UBs vs $600/ea rebuildable Spidertrax units.

I'm envisioning a "40 spline rear axle builder kit" with a 14b 40 spline spool, 40 spline double spline shafts, weld-on 05+ SD unit bearing cups, and a set of 40 spline drive slugs. Let the customer source the unit bearings & brakes.

Yep, I remember him saying that. In all likely hood you'd never have to rebuild one anyway. Think about the abuse they are meant to take and mileage. I haven't touched the bearings/races in my front 60 other than to grease them in 15 years.

The full float 40 spline market will literally skyrocket as soon as builder kits like what you're referring to hit the shelves in a meaningful way.

TBItoy · Jun 2, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

redneckengineered said:
Yep, I remember him saying that. In all likely hood you'd never have to rebuild one anyway. Think about the abuse they are meant to take and mileage. I haven't touched the bearings/races in my front 60 other than to grease them in 15 years.

The full float 40 spline market will literally skyrocket as soon as builder kits like what you're referring to hit the shelves in a meaningful way.

I hear there is this guy that is selling some 40 spline stuff for 14 bolts...

Biggest hurdle I see for rear axle builder kits for FF axles is cutting off the spindles and still having enough tube length to weld on a UB cup and keep a decent WMS width without having to re-tube the axle.

I haven't put a tape measure on any axles while following this train of thought, but it was the first thing that came to mind... might be a non-issue.

Beerj · Jun 2, 2016

Weaver Fab already does the cups and slugs. Would just need to source the shafts

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

Re: Re: Most desirable 14 bolt center for front build

TBItoy said:
I hear there is this guy that is selling some 40 spline stuff for 14 bolts...

Biggest hurdle I see for rear axle builder kits for FF axles is cutting off the spindles and still having enough tube length to weld on a UB cup and keep a decent WMS width without having to re-tube the axle.

I haven't put a tape measure on any axles while following this train of thought, but it was the first thing that came to mind... might be a non-issue.

Haha, yea trust me I know. I shot in my pants just thinking about the possibility of there being a relatively simple kit out there for people to build a 40 spline rear. I'm with you on the width hurdle. I've talked to Spidertrax and some others about converting a previously live spindle rear axle to UB and the general consensus is that you lose several inches depending on setup. I hate wheel spacers and going narrow is unacceptable. I'm sure there's a way to get past this but I'm not smart enough to figure it out without having all the parts in my hands.

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

For those not following the pirate thread here's some interesting discussion

redneckengineered said:
Do you feel like the strength of these unit bearings surpasses the strength of a live spindle setup? I have zero experience with unit bearings but I'm getting close to being a believer.

KYODER said:
YES, I have no doubt. Stronger set up. I will have them in the rear before the end of the month. I have broken no less than two dozen 60 stubs and spindles in the past few years. I think it was a combo of bending spindle then burning axle from rubbing inside spindle. I have had the front wheel assemble leave the car twice above 70 mph. Once at V2R then at Glen Helen.

It's cheaper too! A new Timken 2005+ UB is less than half the cost of a new 60 hub, spindle and bearings.

redneckengineered said:
Pretty awesome. That was going to be my next question...what about the rear? Guess you answered that. Can I assume you save weight going to the UB as well?

The UB stuff has not really caught on yet with the bouncers here in the east, I'd love to see them tested in that kind of environment.

edit: One other question. When you convert your rear, won't you lose track width going to the UB vs spindle/hub setup? How do you plan to deal with that? I might do something similar.

KYODER said:
I haven't weighed everything. But I believe UB and stub weigh less than the 60 hub, spindle, stub, drive flange, bearings.

I'm not going to lose any track width in the rear, as I am building my own UB cups to weld on. They need to be wider than what others are selling. I have a fabricated 4" rear housing that I built to hold the Super14 a few years ago. Current set up is custom 40 spline spindles, modified 14 bolt hubs and 40 spline shafts. With the unit bearings the shafts will be 1" shorter. But yes if you are building a housing to run the UB then it would need to be wider (more tube) versus standard full floater stuff.

RCV has the pucks for the rear to go from 40 spline shafts to the UB. In the front my RCVs plug straight into UB. CV and stub are one piece. Just need to remove bearing in UB if running 40 spline or bigger.

KYODER said:
The idea of using these bigger UB's is that they don't need to be changed out. These use 5" bearings. The bolts / studs are spread on them large enough I can use a 1/2" drive 22mm socket on them around the CV. And those are Rockwell CVs. Also you don't have the problem at full turn of the bolts hitting the CV boot like with the baby unit bearings(2004 and earlier). Time will tell how they hold up, but it's very promising so far.

Another cool thing is that if you want the light weight brakes from spidertrax the hats fit these UB's the same as the pre 2005 versions. I re-drilled my 14" vented rotors to the spidertrax hats that I had from an old project.

94xjsport94 · Jun 3, 2016

Any reason you don't want to retube that one side? I like what Burkey did with his rear and the super 60 outers. I'd copy that but on the front with standard 05+ 60 outers drilled 8x6.5 assuming I had the need.

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

94xjsport94 said:
Any reason you don't want to retube that one side? I like what Burkey did with his rear and the super 60 outers. I'd copy that but on the front with standard 05+ 60 outers drilled 8x6.5 assuming I had the need.

I'd like to convert my rear axle to the big UBs and get away from the spindles for a whole host of reasons but it's not a priority and I don't want to fix **** that ain't broke. Front axle is definitely my next upgrade. Only pic I had handy of my rear

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

This just dropped. Not a lot of info yet.

https://craneaxle.com/magnum-knuckle.html

joho75287 · Jun 3, 2016

redneckengineered said:
This just dropped. Not a lot of info yet.

https://craneaxle.com/magnum-knuckle.html

Twenty eight hunnert doll hairs!!!

Knew I should have found a cheaper hobby!! LOL

bbone · Jun 3, 2016

I think the price is very good...add up what the WOD/EOR cost and this a great deal

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

bbone said:
I think the price is very good...add up what the WOD/EOR cost and this a great deal

Yea, at first glance Reid is cheaper but Crane kit includes the hi-steer arms, bearings, seals and hardware.

Crane is owned by WOD, I imagine the fabricated knuckles will no longer be produced unless someone just insisted on them. Not sure why they would.

bbone · Jun 3, 2016

You are correct. WOD built my front 14, years ago with d60 crane/rcv. I didn't think the fab knuckles were necessary if you were trying to keep a budget. This for me is the way to go if you wanted budget/spindle reuse what you have route

TBItoy · Jun 3, 2016

Re:

Looks like a Rockwell spindle. I assume you'd use something like a Ouverson Super 8 hub?

that's not included... doesn't sound like it by the description anyway.

redneckengineered · Jun 3, 2016

Re:

TBItoy said:
Looks like a Rockwell spindle. I assume you'd use something like a Ouverson Super 8 hub?

that's not included... doesn't sound like it by the description anyway.

Yea, I was just looking at it in more detail. Could get real pricey if you have to add in the cost of running a rock spindle and Ouverson stuff, plus the added "benefit" of dealing with another supplier that is notorious for long lead times. I'm betting they'll have an adapter to go to the Ford unit bearing at some point. I think they already have an adapter so that you can run 60 hubs and stuff but you're still stuck trying to source a decent 40 spline spindle.