RCV Big Bells in 05+ F250/350 outers

Bebop · Oct 24, 2018

94xjsport94 said:
Keep me updated about the stubs please.

RCV's answer :

Yes all of our Dana 60 stub shafts are 300M, but not the CV joints. The CVJ60M-FORD4 uses a full 300M CV joint but the CVJ60-FORD4 uses a 4340 CV joint with a 300M race.

Whoever told you that was right.

Bebop · Oct 24, 2018

redneckengineered said:
Not that I know of. The big bells are all the same. Only difference is in the stub. One part # is for the Reid Super Kingpins, the other is for 450/550. Only difference is the Reid stub is about 1/2" shorter. That's it.

Sooooo about that.

Per RCV, the OD on the 450/550 big bell is 5.337 while the OD on the Reid big bell is 5.467. That's the numbers I texted to kmcminn.
The stub on the Reid one is .48 shorter than the 450/550 one.

Now if we want a "plug and play" 250/350 version, RCV would need to make a shorter stub version of their 450/550 bell and it SHOULD fit through the stock knuckle bore.

Now I just want someone that has a 450/550 bell in their hands to check if it fits through a stock 250/350 bore and we're set.

FlatlandFSJ said:
A "small" big bell should fit through the seal area, it's 5.347. That combined with the shorter stub for the reid stuff should make for a plug and play stub in the f250/350 knuckle right?

*edit...I wonder if the stub for the reid knuckles is the "small" big bell, those knuckles have the lip for the seal in them do they not?

You got it right sir.
I don't think the Reid Super KP have any lip for the seal in them but I'll confirm that today.

TBItoy · Oct 24, 2018

wonder why they decided to make the OD of the SKP specific bells bigger?

Are the guts bigger too? or just the OD of the bell?

Bebop · Oct 24, 2018

TBItoy said:
wonder why they decided to make the OD of the SKP specific bells bigger?

No idea. I'm confused too ???

Are the guts bigger too? or just the OD of the bell?

Guts are the same... Just the OD changes...

Okay, I just talked to Jake Burkey.

He confirmed the smaller big bell (5.337 OD) fits though the stock bore of the knuckle on the 450/550.
He also confirmed the Reid Super KP knuckles have the same stupid lip as the factory knuckle. He has to bore them out to fit the Reid big bells (5.467 OD). He already asked to not put the lip in them.
Reid doesn't want to listen and not machine the lip in the knuckle. Same way they don't make a key for the high steer arm on top, Jake has to machine that too :

But that's another story

I asked RCV about making a 250/350 version with the 5.337 OD bell and I'll let you know what they tell me.

I feel like we're getting there

kmcminn · Oct 24, 2018

Bebop said:
No idea. I'm confused too ???

Guts are the same... Just the OD changes...

Okay, I just talked to Jake Burkey.

He confirmed the smaller big bell (5.337 OD) fits though the stock bore of the knuckle on the 450/550.
He also confirmed the Reid Super KP knuckles have the same stupid lip as the factory knuckle. He has to bore them out to fit the Reid big bells (5.467 OD). He already asked to not put the lip in them.
Reid doesn't want to listen and not machine the lip in the knuckle. Same way they don't make a key for the high steer arm on top, Jake has to machine that too : But that's another story

I asked RCV about making a 250/350 version with the 5.337 OD bell and I'll let you know what they tell me.

I feel like we're getting there

Awesome.

redneckengineered · Oct 24, 2018

TBItoy said:
Ok that makes more sense, already knew that.

I took size = diameter.

Did you end up getting new or modified stubs? since they sent you 450/550 stubs initially.

Never swapped them. I had to modify the unit bearings to work with what I had. At the time I did the build RCV did not have stubs for the Super Kingpins designed yet and could not give me a lead time. So it was either sit around with my thumb up my ass not riding or figure out a solution.

Bebop said:
No idea. I'm confused too ???

Guts are the same... Just the OD changes...

Okay, I just talked to Jake Burkey.

He confirmed the smaller big bell (5.337 OD) fits though the stock bore of the knuckle on the 450/550.
He also confirmed the Reid Super KP knuckles have the same stupid lip as the factory knuckle. He has to bore them out to fit the Reid big bells (5.467 OD). He already asked to not put the lip in them.
Reid doesn't want to listen and not machine the lip in the knuckle. Same way they don't make a key for the high steer arm on top, Jake has to machine that too : But that's another story

This doesn't make sense. Why bore the lip out of the SKP knuckle? You can have it on/off in 5 minutes.

Lastly, and not saying I agree, but Reid has directly addressed the question of why they do not machine keyways. This is straight from Reid.

1) The machining cost on the knuckles would be higher.
2) The machining cost on the steering arms would be higher.
3) Manufacturers of steering arms do not request the "upgrade" to keyed knuckles.
4) Custom machining a keyway is relatively straightforward for those who insist on it.
5) Five or six ARP studs provide more than enough strength...
6) ...especially combined with a double-shear steering system which provides better distribution of torsional loads.
7) In the event of a crash that's big enough to break the steering, it's preferable to have an engineered weak link that is easily repairable (sheared highsteer studs and/or double shear bolts) than it is to have catastrophic breakage of a knuckle, steering ram, axle tube, control arms, transfer case, etc.

Bebop · Oct 24, 2018

redneckengineered said:
This doesn't make sense. Why bore the lip out of the SKP knuckle? You can have it on/off in 5 minutes.

Maybe he doesn't have a big issue removing the domes and doesn't want to remove the knuckle ?
I'm just writing what he told me.

TBItoy · Oct 24, 2018

redneckengineered said:
Never swapped them. I had to modify the unit bearings to work with what I had. At the time I did the build RCV did not have stubs for the Super Kingpins designed yet and could not give me a lead time. So it was either sit around with my thumb up my ass not riding or figure out a solution.

This doesn't make sense. Why bore the lip out of the SKP knuckle? You can have it on/off in 5 minutes.

Ok that's what I thought (removing 1/2" from the splines of the inside of the UB), but saw that you said you had to return your shafts to RCV.

Do you run the big inner axleshaft donut seals in your SKP knuckles?

Bebop · Oct 24, 2018

Ok, let me back pedal some now we think we know everything...

I just called RCV again.

Sooooooo now there is only 1 size of bells. :****:

RCVs email was confusing and mentioned another application that used the 5.337 bell and well, it was something way different and not compatible.

So the 450/550 big bell is definitely 5.467 and doesn't fit in the stock knuckle bore. Just like the Reid version.

I then called Jake again. His 450/550 knuckles were machined and he thinks the bore was machined too but doesn't remember. He is positive the bell slid through the knuckle and I can confirm that it did.

RCV said they would consider doing a slightly smaller OD so it fits the stock bore when they machine the next batch, but now they have 20+ bells in stock and they want to sell them first.
So the plug and play version is not out of the question, just delayed.

We're back to square 1. I'm waiting to see what kind of machining is needed to fit the bells.
I will order the 2 complete set Reid outers (C's, knuckles, HS arms, yada yada) on Monday through Jake and he told me he would do a video on the machining process for the SKP knuckles.

Hope you're still following :wtflol:

bbone · Oct 24, 2018

Maybe Woodlee will chime in..has Crane jumped into this yet?

FlatlandFSJ · Oct 24, 2018

bbone said:
Maybe Woodlee will chime in..has Crane jumped into this yet?

They got that magnum knuckle that uses the rockwell spindle and the big bell 2" stubs. I remember seeing something about an adapter to run the big spidertrax unit bearing, and a mention of maybe doing superduty stuff.

redneckengineered · Oct 24, 2018

TBItoy said:
Ok that's what I thought (removing 1/2" from the splines of the inside of the UB), but saw that you said you had to return your shafts to RCV.

Do you run the big inner axleshaft donut seals in your SKP knuckles?

I kind of got screwed in a way but not really. Here's the whole story...

Built front SKP 14, from my understanding I was the second to actually complete my build.
Stubs were designed for 450/550 knuckles, RCV did not realize the SKP knuckles were based off 250/350 dims. Assembled the whole thing, stubs bottomed out in the UB because they were a 1/2" too long and everything bound up.
Got on the phone with RCV engineers, once they realized what had happened I was informed the correct stubs for my application were in R&D with no time frame. I was ready to ride.
Counter-bored my UBs 1/2" to suck the stubs in 1/2" deeper to take up the extra length. This worked great but it also reduced the spline engagement of my inners and I wasn't thrilled about that. Also purchased 1 extra UB and counterbored it for a spare.
Fast forward to RCV releasing the correct stubs for me. We talked and they were willing to to send me the right ones. Sounds great but I would have had to buy two new UBs (that were not counterbored) and another spare and redrill them to 8x6.5 ($$$). That's like $600 easy.
I also brought up the inner spline engagement issue which was really their fault as well. They offered to take care of the inners or the stubs, one or the other. Considering I already had 3 good UBs, drilled and counterbored for my stubs I went with the two new inners option. Also the new inner option cost me $0.00. So they whipped me up two longer inners with full spline engagement and here we are.

So I say I kind of got screwed but not really because RCV was upstanding all the way. They made a simple mistake and did everything they could to make it right. Sometimes when your dabbling in new virtually untested **** you have to be willing to deal with the bugs so I was understanding of that. Would I like not to have to counterbore my UBs? Yea, but honestly it's not like I'm going to be going through these things. I already have to redrill them so it's another 15 minutes to counter bore. At the end of the day I'm thrilled with my 14 build and would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

redneckengineered · Oct 24, 2018

TBItoy said:
Do you run the big inner axleshaft donut seals in your SKP knuckles?

Are you talking about the big vacuum seal thing? No not running them.

TBItoy · Oct 24, 2018

Re:

How did you end up losing 1/2" of inner spline engagement by having to bore the unit bearing?

Essentially you made your outer knuckle setup dimensionally identical to the 450/550 knuckle, which the stub was designed for (to put the CV in the center of the steering axis).

Only way I could see that happening is if you just gave them an overall length (say from the end of the unit bearing to the diff splines) and they built off of that ?

Either way, sounds like it worked out fine

Bebop · Oct 26, 2018

Re:

TBItoy said:
How did you end up losing 1/2" of inner spline engagement by having to bore the unit bearing?

There is a pic on the thread of his front axle build that explains it pretty well.

I'll picking up a stock machined knuckle in a few hours and will report back. I'm confident.

TBItoy · Oct 26, 2018

Bebop said:
There is a pic on the thread of his front axle build that explains it pretty well.

I'll picking up a stock machined knuckle in a few hours and will report back. I'm confident.

I know what he had to do, and why. But that didn't change the distance from the steering axis to the diff splines.

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