What is more destructive?

Hip · Nov 1, 2006

i tend to agree its the driver.

i have seen a lesser rig with open diffs try and try an obstacle which a locked rig walked over and in so doing tear up the area. again if the lesser rig attempted a couple of times then stop and pull cable or get a tug there would be no damage.

i have also seen very capable rigs trying new obstacles over and over with different approach angles repeatedly till finally after twenty trys they make it. leaving huge undercuts and huge holes.

its the driver.

dr drae · Nov 1, 2006

We ran that trail on a July weekend and that line was impassable, there were a ton of logs as I remember, our group (10 rigs or so) followed the group ahead of us and went through the bypass on the far left (left of the water in that 2nd pic)
****, I hope we weren't "those guys" that went the wrong way, but that line was pretty much impossible when we were there

Rock_Crusher · Nov 1, 2006

GRNTACO said:
Is this still open or is there trees in it?

Does no one see, "HOW MUCH OF THAT SECTION HAS ERODED?"

that used to be as flat as the ground 6 ft above... and in a few more years w/ heavy traffic - from more & more users... it will be another 6 ft lower.
unless someone fixes / fill's it in. you learn alot about rig's & trail's, by 1st hand seeing them freshly built / made / created... then watching as the years go by & seeing them become what they are...

*I myself like the trails to change and become more difficult or etc, by all the users using them in different rig's, although... some trails... can not be damaged as much as they are becoming now... wide rig's / big tires / thrashing the trail out right...

it's opening them up to be wider, deeper, or making them eat away at the surroundings - side / hills / etc... and causing them to get closed until fixed.
more & more though is being placed into building new trails that will last.

like Elbe...

It's the type of trail system that is a straight line from start to finish.

and if more & more were built by man rather than by 1st time rig Blazing a trail through the forest... we might be able to maintain them better.
i think, if we could embed / cement / fill with rock - make the surface hard & then build on top of that w/ dirt / obstacles...
where applicable.

the entire complete trail system's - would last forever.

---------------------------------------------------------
until that happens, it's all about respecting the trail... but alot of guys don't!

benw1 · Nov 1, 2006

GRNTACO said:
Is this still open or is there trees in it?

No, that section has all been blocked and rerouted farther to the left. It sucks that section got so torn up, but it can't be blamed solely on big tires or small tires. Damage was caused to some degree by anyone and everyone that ran the trail when it was soft and wet early in the season. The big problem we are facing is the constantly increasing user volume, being funnelled into decreasing total trail mileage.

crash2 · Nov 1, 2006

benw said:
No, that section has all been blocked and rerouted farther to the left. It sucks that section got so torn up, but it can't be blamed solely on big tires or small tires. Damage was caused to some degree by anyone and everyone that ran the trail when it was soft and wet early in the season. The big problem we are facing is the constantly increasing user volume, being funnelled into decreasing total trail mileage.

Very well put Ben

GRNTACO · Nov 1, 2006

benw said:
No, that section has all been blocked and rerouted farther to the left. It sucks that section got so torn up, but it can't be blamed solely on big tires or small tires. Damage was caused to some degree by anyone and everyone that ran the trail when it was soft and wet early in the season. The big problem we are facing is the constantly increasing user volume, being funnelled into decreasing total trail mileage.

I have to disagree to some degree......

Trail Report: 6/15/06

This trail had been one of beautiful views and challenging terrain that had been a favorite of ours since we first ran it back in 1999. This has never been an easy trail but it was manageable by stock Jeeps with good drivers and provided lots of fun.
On our most recent visit to this trail on June 14th, 2006 we were completely disappointed to find a beautiful trail that has been completely destroyed. What we saw were tank traps that can swallow a rig with 44" tires, bridges that are meant to protect sensitive areas were rendered useless due to "mud bogs" at the end of them forcing rigs into the sensitive areas and doing more damage.
We witnessed rigs that looked like they should be in a stadium crushing cars digging holes that would swallow a city bus and themselves having to winch out of it. To be fair I believe the damage had been done before these rigs got there but they weren't helping the situation at all. We were forced to turn back and write off this trail as useless to anything that doesn't look like a monster truck.
There is a saying in off-roading that you "Build your rig, not the trail". That refers to building a rig that is capable of the trail and not to alter the trail so that your rig can run it. However it has always been our belief that to that end you have to stop building your rig and build the drivers capabilities and experience at some point.
For all intent and purposes this trail is closed to all of us now due to the ignorance and mis-treatment by only a few. I can only hope that someday rigs with 31" tires will again be able to run this trail and enjoy it's former beauty and challenge. Until then we all are suffering the loss of a great trail.

TREAD LIGHTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ed

That area was intentionally dug out.

benw1 · Nov 1, 2006

GRNTACO said:
That area was intentionally dug out.

Bullshit. What evidence do you have that it was done intentionally? The area was overused by a flood of people in an abnormally wet early season. The trails were far more saturated with water on Memorial weekend this year than they usually are. Combine that with more users in the area than in the past, and the trail took a major beating. That "trail report" is nothing but hyperbole and biased commentary. If you ran the trail late in the season when it was dry, you would have seen that it is more or less back to normal, except for the one area that was closed and rerouted. That area has needed rehabilitation for quite awhile, that section is alwasy wet, and has been constantly eroding for as long as I've been running that trail. The circumstances this year finally pushed it over the edge, unfortunately it got pushed WAY over the edge...

Rock_Crusher · Nov 1, 2006

alright keyboard on lap....

pay attention;

Most People that have a 4wd vehicle - have very different idea's on offroading. rockcrawler / trail runner / mud bogger / etc... stock 4wd / mildly built 4x4 / heavily modified buggy / etc... trail system / open field / dry & dusty / wet & muddy / nothing but rocks / etc...

It really comes down to EDUCATION for the specific trail you are on.

If tickturds didn't destroy signage & others learned to read - we might accomplish the education - yet, it still boils down to driver of said rig.
some might think as i've stated that offroading is to them, tearing it up...
flinging mud everywhere... getting the rig as dirty as possible...

others might think it means to just begin at the begining & finish at the end, w/o spinning tires or doing massive dig's to get thru to the end.

everyone is different, and thinks different & wheels differently too!

1 guy in a lifted chevy truck w/ 35's might see a suzuki samurai and laugh his ass off, until he notices that the sami is running trails at a much slower pace & navigating thru the forest up & over & thru obstacles, where as the chevy truck is too big to fit between the trees, he's used to doing major power splashes thru puddles or big time burnouts in mud holes...

he tries to run the trails & quickly finds his truck being torn apart by the tight trees... and decides to bail off the trail by making his own way out - because he can... and feels no shame or wrong doing in doing so.

theres people from other states that think offroading is splashing thru puddles, theres people that think offroading is rock crawling, and then there are people who think offroading is just buying a stock 4wd rig and finding a trail to go and start offroading.

this is where trouble finds it self.

new stock rigs - on trails not meant for them... trouble
guy in big lifted chevy truck at elbe? trouble
heavily modified offroader at tahuya... trouble

it comes down to EDUCATION... AND BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF IT...
WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO TRAIL DESTRUCTION... I bet you will are going to see a tire restriction in the not so near future...

if we were able to distinguish & educate to others the major importance of what when & how is allowed in what area's... we'd have it made. but, like others have stated & i'm trying to... some just don't get it? or they don't want to, or they are lazy to pull cable or don't care about tree strap's / etc.

-----------------------------------------------

It's tire size alright, then it's driver, then it's common sense. but more than anything it's education -

IF EVERY SINGLE RIG IS THE SAME & DOING THE SAME TRAIL & EVERYONE IS WINCHING UP A OBSTACLE, YET YOU DECIDE TO NOT WINCH???

SHOULDN'T THAT BE A CLUE - - - IF OTHERS AROUND YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING IN A GROUP - - - SHOULDN'T YOU GO ALONG W/ THEM?

it is in those fundamentals that if we set a standard and get off our butts to make clear to the new guy / gal... this is how it's done here & this is how we do it here... and not let them do it any other way... then we have succeeded & after we are not around, hopefully they continue to follow are example's.

ok - keyboard back on desk top!:corn:

GRNTACO · Nov 1, 2006

benw said:
Bullshit. What evidence do you have that it was done intentionally?

And where is yours? That section didn't go from 3' to 6' in one weekend of wheeling......sorry but that is bullshit to even think that. That area was very saturated and people made a mess out of it intentionally. That's my opinion and if you don't like it to bad for you.

TreeClimber · Nov 1, 2006

briejer said:
Big tires(40+) locked up.....or....31-33 open diffs or only one locker?

What are your thought???

Specifically to answer only the question, it's without a doubt TIRES. I've wheeled lots, and upon occasion witnessed the 31-33 open front and rear guys try to follow. Inevitably they get stuck early and often and almost without a doubt pack up and go home. VERY rarely do they complete even a moderate trail. Plus on the rare time they do 'get with it', they cannot dig a large hole, or erode much. A 31 inch tires has maybe 10 inches til the axle is dragging. And a 10 inch hole isn't much.

A 40 inch tire on the other hand allows much much much more aggressive terrain to be attempted. Any trail that a 31 inch tire would do, a 40 incher wouldn't even want to be on as it is boooorrrring.

Obviously it's driver who determines everything.

Jaydog · Nov 1, 2006

Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth.
Tire spin is what causes damage, Period. A bigger tire will cause more damage than a 31" but it still comes down to tire spin. If everyone was locked front and rear, then you would see a lot less damage.

CrustyJeep · Nov 1, 2006

Jaydog said:
If everyone was locked front and rear, then you would see a lot less damage.

That's not entirely true in and of itself.

When an open axle spins a tire, it spins the light tire. Often it's the tire that's almost in the air. It might look like it's spinning and destroying things, but it's really just spinning. If it was getting enough traction to damage anything, the rig wouldn't be stuck, now would it?

Been there done that :redneck:

Oh and another point about tires, unrelated to size. A lot of rigs with open diffs are driven by offroad noobs. Offroad noobs don't know enough to buy good tires, so they buy the likes of Pro-Comp or BFG's. They just do not have the traction of a "true" offroad tire, like a Swamper. You can't dig big holes as fast with crappy tires that just won't dig in.

Again, been there done that :redneck:

Roccrawler · Nov 1, 2006

:stirpot: :stirpot:

How about if everyone with small tires stays home and drives on the road there would be less erosion and less blame on the bigger tires :flipoff:

:stirpot: :stirpot:

Red beard · Nov 1, 2006

i dont think its tire size. its open diff alot but its also locked up people to it just depends on how heavy your right foot is.

blackcj71 · Nov 1, 2006

Driver not knowing with enough is enough. Both small and large tires do damage bigger more then smaller, but hands down its driver.

Boomer · Nov 1, 2006

roccrawler said:
:stirpot: :stirpot:

How about if everyone with small tires stays home and drives on the road there would be less erosion and less blame on the bigger tires :flipoff:

:stirpot: :stirpot:

How about if we ban buggies and other car/truck sized vehicles that are not legal to drive on streets and forest service roads?

:stirpot: :stirpot:

Roccrawler · Nov 1, 2006

Boomer said:
How about if we ban buggies and other car/truck sized vehicles that are not legal to drive on streets and forest service roads?

:stirpot: :stirpot:

and motorcycles and quads.. then it can just be one big forest service road...ya good idea

Boomer · Nov 1, 2006

roccrawler said:
and motorcycles and quads.. then it can just be one big forest service road...ya good idea

Motorcycles and quads are not car/truck sized vehicles. Reading and comprehension are fundemental. :flipoff:

:stirpot: :stirpot:

benw1 · Nov 1, 2006

How about if we take responsibility for our actions and not try to wrongfully place blame on any one segment of our user group? How about if we do our best to maintain the trails and educate users we see abusing them?