Hydro help

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Pic of valve.

Binder · Jul 27, 2010

Maverick26 said:
So if I do go get a new pump from Napa how many shims to I put under the end cap on the piston. My stock chevy pump had no shims under the end cap but the one I got from napa had 3. If you remove the shims it ups the pressure.

If it were me I would take it out of the box and install it. No need to count shims and such.......Now on another note you early on in this thread asked about changing the ram to 2-1/2" and yes that would add about 40% more surface area to the piston which would be much easier on the pump but also make your steering about 40% slower- more turns lock to lock.

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Binder said:
If it were me I would take it out of the box and install it. No need to count shims and such.......Now on another note you early on in this thread asked about changing the ram to 2-1/2" and yes that would add about 40% more surface area to the piston which would be much easier on the pump but also make your steering about 40% slower- more turns lock to lock.

Ok sounds good. I will try a new napa pump with no mods. But if you think about it the P pump came on lots of different rigs Chevy, jeep.. ex.. and I am sure if you looked at all the valves there all shimmed different from the factor but all the pumps are the same. The sim controls how much pressure it puts out. So how do I know what pressure I need for my system?

Also I know lots of guys that run a 2" ram and not have any issues. I dont think the ram is killing the pumps. And I dont think it would be wise to invest 200 bucks into a 2.5" ram and have slow steering and still burn up pumps.

Binder · Jul 27, 2010

Maverick26 said:
The sim controls how much pressure it puts out. So how do I know what pressure I need for my system?

The shim doesn't control how much pressure the pump puts out it controls at what pressure the fluid is bypassed back into the reservoir. Pumps don't put out pressure, the pressure is created whan there is an obstruction for the fluid to work against. The orbital and the ram create the resistance and the relief valve alows the fluid to bypass the orbitol and rams when the pressure gets too high.
The squealing sound often heard from these pumps is the sound when the relief valve is opening (assuming the belt isn't slipping). If all is well the valve will hardly ever open in the first place.

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Binder said:
The shim doesn't control how much pressure the pump puts out it controls at what pressure the fluid is bypassed back into the reservoir. Pumps don't put out pressure, the pressure is created whan there is an obstruction for the fluid to work against. The orbital and the ram create the resistance and the relief valve alows the fluid to bypass the orbitol and rams when the pressure gets too high.
The squealing sound often heard from these pumps is the sound when the relief valve is opening (assuming the belt isn't slipping). If all is well the valve will hardly ever open in the first place.

Ok I read this about 10 times... I think I got it. The res is like a capacitor? What if my res cap is not tight, would this cause a loss of pressure? As RPMs go up so does pressure?

Eric · Jul 27, 2010

I think some where is this thread you had mentioned running the lines up high to keep them from getting roasted.

I think Binder or someone had said something about this.

Have you re run your lines so the air will naturaly blead out of the system? Or can air still get traped in the system somewhere?

Ausume the pump is not going to pump air out? or force the air out?

Just a thought. Hopefully it might help. If not sorry to cluter your thread

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Eric said:
I think some where is this thread you had mentioned running the lines up high to keep them from getting roasted.

I think Binder or someone had said something about this.

Have you re run your lines so the air will naturaly blead out of the system? Or can air still get traped in the system somewhere?

Ausume the pump is not going to pump air out? or force the air out?

Just a thought. Hopefully it might help. If not sorry to cluter your thread

Dont worry about the clutter. We did talk about the air being trapped and I plan to try and re-rout some lines to get them low enough to let the air out. My orbital on the other hand is a bit higher then my res too so there lies another problem.

Binder · Jul 27, 2010

Maverick26 said:
Ok I read this about 10 times... I think I got it. The res is like a capacitor? What if my res cap is not tight, would this cause a loss of pressure? As RPMs go up so does pressure?

No the cap doesn't matter as the fluid going into the res has no (hopefully) resistance to create pressure. The working pressure in this type of system is contained between the pump, relief valve and resistance- ram. No RPM's don't automatically make pressure go up but higher RPM's give the pump the ability to move more fluid which with resistance could add up to more pressure....It depends on what you're asking the system to do at a given time.
BTW I can now see the picture of your cooler and it's crap. Get a stacked plate style cooler.

Binder · Jul 27, 2010

Binder said:
If it were me I would take it out of the box and install it.

If it were me I would also use the extra large reservoir you made.

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Just talked to BTF and they are a Howe dealer. They tell me that my return line is too small also and I sould go with 1/2" and a better cooler. I got lots of good info and I am gonna try and re work my system and see if I can make it work with a stock pump for now.

I asked them about a Howe pump setup with a pully and remote res and they quoted me $580.

Maverick26 · Jul 27, 2010

Binder said:
If it were me I would also use the extra large reservoir you made.

Glad you like the res. It is huge... I would say it holds close to 2qts by itself.

Binder · Jul 27, 2010

The thing with the return line....It's been brought up a couple times that a 1/2" return line would be better and this is true. The barb on your reservoir is 3/8" so I'm not sure how exactly that's going to work. Also we always hear how the return line on steering systems must be larger and rated for vacuum but the system you have is an exception to the rule as your return line is before the reservoir. There is no vacuum on this line and being 3/8" is the same as the rest of the system so you won't get a huge advantage out of changing it to 1/2".
But go ahead because if you can get 1/2" to work it is "better".:cheer:

Maverick26 · Jul 29, 2010

Binder said:
The thing with the return line....It's been brought up a couple times that a 1/2" return line would be better and this is true. The barb on your reservoir is 3/8" so I'm not sure how exactly that's going to work. Also we always hear how the return line on steering systems must be larger and rated for vacuum but the system you have is an exception to the rule as your return line is before the reservoir. There is no vacuum on this line and being 3/8" is the same as the rest of the system so you won't get a huge advantage out of changing it to 1/2".
But go ahead because if you can get 1/2" to work it is "better".:cheer:

Talked to Jason at Howe Steering and he is gonna hook me up with a new pump, pully and res. He said I need to run a heat sink style cooler also. I got one of those on the way. He also said be sure to mount the res at the highest point in the system and to run 1/2" line on the return and 3/4" line as the suction or feed to the pump.

Thank guys for all the help, Jason just kind of restated what you all said so now I am just waiting for parts. :awesomework:

Bunk1 · Jul 30, 2010

Maverick26 said:
Talked to Jason at Howe Steering and he is gonna hook me up with a new pump, pully and res. He said I need to run a heat sink style cooler also. I got one of those on the way. He also said be sure to mount the res at the highest point in the system and to run 1/2" line on the return and 3/4" line as the suction or feed to the pump.

Thank guys for all the help, Jason just kind of restated what you all said so now I am just waiting for parts. :awesomework:

DOH, I should have mentioned that i make heat sink coolers.

fwiw i have 1 inch suction line rated to 25 inch of vacuum(?) and a 3/8ths return to remote res. I'll look at the suction line tomorrow to verify this. Sean had a very detailed schematic he sent with my system.

He still hasnt called me back and ive left messages, At his home! lol

Maverick26 · Jul 30, 2010

Bunk said:
DOH, I should have mentioned that i make heat sink coolers.

fwiw i have 1 inch suction line rated to 25 inch of vacuum(?) and a 3/8ths return to remote res. I'll look at the suction line tomorrow to verify this. Sean had a very detailed schematic he sent with my system.

He still hasnt called me back and ive left messages, At his home! lol

Joe,
I finally talked to Sean last night and the conversation ended too quick, 30 min, and I didnt get enough info out of him.

I have a question for all you nut swingers out there.. how come every single steering company has a different opinon and contridicts one another. All I want is to stop buying parts I dont need and get the right parts that will work without issue for a long time. I am so freakin tired of this problem.

PSC says: Its my ram that is killing pumps, I need a 2.5" ram and thats it. This was not a very informative conversation.. It came accross as "buy my parts".

Howe says: I have air in my lines, my cooler is not the right type. Buy a heat sink cooler and jump up to a 1/2" return line, dont mod the pumps and try and new napa pump. Seems a little more helpful.

POS says: There is no such thing as air in my lines since the flow of fluid and it being a closed loop system the only place the air can go is out the res even if the res is mounted 2' below the system. He said that the cooler that I have is not the best but a heat sink cooler is the worst, almost zero heat disapation cause all it is is just a tube. He told me to get a stacked core cooler. He also said my ram is on the small side for a double ended ram only being a 2" bore with a 1.25" rod and 8" stoke It is causing the bump to go into bypass mode. He also said the mods to the last pump where what killed it so quick but not the only thing that killed it. He said I could get away with my res and napa pump if I had a 2.5" ram. Being that my orbital is 2.9 revs lock to lock that increases that by 60% making it slow. So if I want faster steering I will need a bigger orbital.

I dont really know who to trust. I see people running all these brands of parts and systems but why is it that they dont agree?

CHOP SHOP · Jul 30, 2010

Maverick26 said:
POS says: There is no such thing as air in my lines since the flow of fluid and it being a closed loop system the only place the air can go is out the res even if the res is mounted 2' below the system. He said that the cooler that I have is not the best but a heat sink cooler is the worst, almost zero heat disapation cause all it is is just a tube. He told me to get a stacked core cooler. He also said my ram is on the small side for a double ended ram only being a 2" bore with a 1.25" rod and 8" stoke It is causing the bump to go into bypass mode. He also said the mods to the last pump where what killed it so quick but not the only thing that killed it. He said I could get away with my res and napa pump if I had a 2.5" ram. Being that my orbital is 2.9 revs lock to lock that increases that by 60% making it slow. So if I want faster steering I will need a bigger orbital.

This sounds closest to your issues.

Damnyankee · Jul 30, 2010

Bunk said:
DOH, I should have mentioned that i make heat sink coolers.

fwiw i have 1 inch suction line rated to 25 inch of vacuum(?) and a 3/8ths return to remote res. I'll look at the suction line tomorrow to verify this. Sean had a very detailed schematic he sent with my system.

He still hasnt called me back and ive left messages, At his home! lol

1" is huge. 3/4 should be fine.
3/8ths on the tank should work, but i still think that 1/2 is better.

I don't know why the guy thinks a bigger ram is the ticket. it shoud not kill the pump. thats what the relief valves are for. to protect the pump.
if anything, it won't push properly with a ram too small.

Damnyankee · Jul 30, 2010

just thought about something else..

why do you NEED a heat sink type HEX? They are for areas that don't see air flow.

if you have a HEX (sorry, abbriviation for heat exchanger) that has air flow, he's wrong.

Maverick26 · Jul 30, 2010

Well I have the napa style cooler on there now in air flow but POS steering said it is not the best cooler but its not the worst.

Binder · Jul 30, 2010

Maverick26 said:
Joe,
I finally talked to Sean last night and the conversation ended too quick, 30 min, and I didnt get enough info out of him.

I have a question for all you nut swingers out there.. how come every single steering company has a different opinon and contridicts one another. All I want is to stop buying parts I dont need and get the right parts that will work without issue for a long time. I am so freakin tired of this problem.

PSC says: Its my ram that is killing pumps, I need a 2.5" ram and thats it. This was not a very informative conversation.. It came accross as "buy my parts".

Howe says: I have air in my lines, my cooler is not the right type. Buy a heat sink cooler and jump up to a 1/2" return line, dont mod the pumps and try and new napa pump. Seems a little more helpful.

POS says: There is no such thing as air in my lines since the flow of fluid and it being a closed loop system the only place the air can go is out the res even if the res is mounted 2' below the system. He said that the cooler that I have is not the best but a heat sink cooler is the worst, almost zero heat disapation cause all it is is just a tube. He told me to get a stacked core cooler. He also said my ram is on the small side for a double ended ram only being a 2" bore with a 1.25" rod and 8" stoke It is causing the bump to go into bypass mode. He also said the mods to the last pump where what killed it so quick but not the only thing that killed it. He said I could get away with my res and napa pump if I had a 2.5" ram. Being that my orbital is 2.9 revs lock to lock that increases that by 60% making it slow. So if I want faster steering I will need a bigger orbital.

I dont really know who to trust. I see people running all these brands of parts and systems but why is it that they dont agree?

A big part of the contradictions is usually a vendor won't take enough time to look at your complete system. Time is money to a business owner.....Definately get a stacked plate cooler. A heat sink type cooler usually has less resistance to flow which is a good thing but they don't dicipate heat as well so what's the point?
Did you tell us it was a double ended ram with 1.25" rod? I don't remember reading the rod size but I should have asked. That is a very small surface area. With that ram you only have slightly more than the equivalent to a 1" bore single ended ram.
As far as air in the system it's not an open loop system. The lines going into the ram are closed ended and air can get caught there. Usually the air does work it's way out though and the rest of the system is open loop so it's tough to get air caught there but it does happen.