Anybody run Iron goat/new years?

[Murkman]

Of these how many were proven convictions and not guilty pleas?

Most paid fines as far as I know. Except the Wenatchee case. They did time

 

[Money Mark]

You can't stop littering and dumping. You can only clean it up and/or close the area to public access. Even in the best scenario, education and enforcement can only mitigate the problem.

And no. I'm not saying don't try to catch, report, cite, prosecute and convict the culprits. But have realistic expectations of the fruits of your labor.

Example: Friends of the Trails cleans up mess's; that is their focus. They are not claimed to be a "watch dog of the forests".

There are two courses, two paths one must define; the "cleaners" and the "watchers". I'm all for the cleaners........not so much on the watchers.

 

[Binder]

I was just wondering what direction the argument was going about if we could actually do something about this problem...I am not trolling here but rather interested in ways that we could do something more than just talking on the Internet about it

I know your new to the board and may not know some of the older threads but.........My angle in these kind of things is to try and dispel the myths that people tend to believe so that we can move onto something else that might just make a real difference. The myth is that taking snap shots or video is the answer to it all. The fact is you can take pictures until the lens melts off of your camera then send it into the police but you will be disappointed to find the offences will go on. Most if not all of the incidences where you took pictures will go un prosecuted for several different reasons. History has proven this and I've explained it until the keys are wore off my computer yet still another thread will pop up where everyone wants to take pictures of license plates to solve problems in the woods.

 

[Binder]

Most paid fines as far as I know. Except the Wenatchee case. They did time

That wasn't the question. Do you know many were proven guilty?

 

[Money Mark]

I'm expressing the same thing Binder is.....just in a different way.

You go girl!

 

[Murkman]

That wasn't the question. Do you know many were proven guilty?

I have no direct knowledge. I believe in the Wenatchee case the perps (so to speak) were give the choice admit guilt or the prosecution would seek jail time. The result was jail time.

In the case of the E-berg mudder. The choice was cooperate or they would seek jail time. His choice was to plead guilty.

I do not know if anyone choose to have a lawyer.

 

[crash2]

That wasn't the question. Do you know many were proven guilty?

Isn't paying a fine the same and admitting guilt? Kinda like when you pay a speeding ticket. Or am I missing your point rick?

 

[Bill]

I'm out....

 

[KarlVP]

I know your new to the board and may not know some of the older threads but.........My angle in these kind of things is to try and dispel the myths that people tend to believe so that we can move onto something else that might just make a real difference. The myth is that taking snap shots or video is the answer to it all. The fact is you can take pictures until the lens melts off of your camera then send it into the police but you will be disappointed to find the offences will go on. Most if not all of the incidences where you took pictures will go un prosecuted for several different reasons. History has proven this and I've explained it until the keys are wore off my computer yet still another thread will pop up where everyone wants to take pictures of license plates to solve problems in the woods.

I am educated.


So, what should we do when we see wrong doings?

 

[Binder]

Isn't paying a fine the same and admitting guilt? Kinda like when you pay a speeding ticket. Or am I missing your point rick?

Yes but no. You're pleabargaining. You say your guilty and accept a lesser penalty to just move on with it. My point in this is none of these people are proven to be guilty they just accepted a plea. If they were proven guilty then we could use that as an template of how it could/ should be done. Use it as a successful example. Railroading people into a plea with us knowing up front that's the only way they will pay the price is not only immoral but unjust as well. We need to find a more "airtight" way of taking care of things.
I don't have that answer but accepting things for what they are and not what we wish they were is a first step in the right direction in my opinion.

 

[Money Mark]

So, what should we do when we see wrong doings?

Understand that in most cases there bigger fish to fry. Put your efforts into something with a more tangible and direct impact. Tattle-telling is not an efficient means of encouraging behavioral change.

Pick up after litter bugs. Arrange clean ups of dump sites. Have non-confrontational dialog with folks doing wrong.......even if they are rawly. Educate.

Lastly, understand that while learning, everyone gets a free pass.....at least once. Avoid scapegoating and witch hunts.

 

[boxboy]

Isn't paying a fine the same and admitting guilt? Kinda like when you pay a speeding ticket. Or am I missing your point rick?

Ricks point is most people admit guilt by just paying the fine... Rick wants to see if anyone actually took the case in front of a judge and was found guilty by preponderance of the evidence.

 

[Binder]

I am educated.


So, what should we do when we see wrong doings?

I don't have all the answers, I wish I did. The whole taking pictures thing doesn't hurt our cause so continuing to do so while we try to find a better solution I think is OK. We should attempt to educate offenders when we see them just don't be disapointed if/ when it doesn't work.

I was hopeing we could all put our heads together and find a solution.:awesomework:

 

[benw1]

I think The Internet causes more damage to wheeling areas than litterers, garbage dumpers, meadow rippers, salmon smashers and mudders combined.

 

[Binder]

Ricks point is most people admit guilt by just paying the fine... Rick wants to see if anyone actually took the case in front of a judge and was found guilty by preponderance of the evidence.

Yes! And what would even be better is if someone put fourth a real effort- lawyers to defend themselves and they still lost.

 

[Binder]

I think The Internet causes more damage to wheeling areas than litterers, garbage dumpers, meadow rippers, salmon smashers and mudders combined.

I absolutely agree! I even remember starting a thread on this forum discussing this......I think it got me banned.:haha:

 

[Money Mark]

I think other wheelers on The Internet causes more damage to wheeling areas than litterers, garbage dumpers, meadow rippers, salmon smashers and mudders combined.

More accurate.....???

 

[Money Mark]

I think The Internet causes more damage to wheeling areas than litterers, garbage dumpers, meadow rippers, salmon smashers and mudders combined.

The only flaw is that you're implying the problem goes away with the absence of the internet.......as if the internet made them happen.

ORV users should not hide behind the intangible in order to point blame. That's ****'n weak.:rb:

 

[Binder]

The only flaw is that you're implying the problem goes away with the absence of the internet.......as if the internet made them happen.

I don't think the internet made it happen directly but the internet made the whole industry progress at such an accelerated rate that just the population of wheelers is a problem. Take that along with the information about our areas being spread to the public then it's a overuse problem.
I think the issues of dumping, littering, wheeling where you're not supposed to has always been proportionate to the number of people involved and that's not changed. What's changed is the number of people.
As a result many wheeling areas are being kept secret.:;

 

[Money Mark]

I don't think the internet made it happen directly but the internet made the whole industry progress at such an accelerated rate that just the population of wheelers is a problem. Take that along with the information about our areas being spread to the public then it's a overuse problem.
I think the issues of dumping, littering, wheeling where you're not supposed to has always been proportionate to the number of people involved and that's not changed. What's changed is the number of people.
As a result many wheeling areas are being kept secret.:;

I can agree with that analysis.

Secret wheeling areas? Never......:haha::;